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Old 12-19-2006, 12:53 AM
 
4,247 posts, read 9,211,729 times
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Look, I am going to say something that is not PC, but that is ok. I have the utmost respect for the population I will aim this at, and that's all I can say...

Quote:
The Jews of Europe were the most numerous of the victims of the Holocaust in what the ***** called the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" (die Endlösung der Judenfrage) or "the cleaning" (die Reinigung). It is commonly stated that approximately six million Jews were murdered in the Holocaust, though estimates by historians using, among other sources, records from the Nazi regime itself, range from five million to seven million.

Millions of other minority members also perished in the Holocaust. About 220,000 Sinti and Roma were murdered (some estimates are as high as 800,000) — between a quarter to a half of their European population. Other groups deemed by the ***** to be "racially inferior" or "undesirable" included Poles (6 million killed, of whom 3 million were Christian, and the rest Jewish), Serbs (estimates vary between 500,000 and 1.2 million killed, mostly by Croat Ustaše), Soviet military prisoners of war and civilians in occupied territories including Russians and other East Slavs, the mentally or physically disabled, homosexuals, Africans, Jehovah's Witnesses, Communists and political dissidents, trade unionists, Freemasons, Eastern Christians, and Catholic and Protestant clergy, were also persecuted and killed.

Some scholars do not include the Nazi persecution of all of these groups in the definition of the Holocaust, rather limiting the Holocaust to the genocide of the Jews. However, taking into account all minority groups, the total death toll rises considerably; estimates generally place the total number of Holocaust victims at 9 to 11 million, though some estimates have been as high as 26 million.[2]

Another group, whose deaths are related to the Holocaust but not always counted in the totals, comprise the thousands who committed suicide rather than face what they feared would be untold suffering ending in death. In 2006, the European Union financed a project to research these victims; despite religious prohibitions against suicide, it is estimated that in Berlin alone, 1,600 Jews killed themselves between 1938 and 1945.
The truth about it all. I need to cite this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
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Old 12-19-2006, 01:12 AM
 
1,330 posts, read 4,560,739 times
Reputation: 476
I am sure this link is OK, so if anyone is interested in reading about the F-16 issue I alluded to in my last post, here it is:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapo...16i/F-16I.html

F-16's bought from Lockheed Martin, by Israel, with US govt aid. Basically, the US taxpayers are footing the bill in the end. And these birds are NOT cheap!

I want to make it clear I have absolutely NO beef with Israel, I mean why would any nation turn down such a generous package?

What I DO have a beef with is that this is the type of jet my DH crewed in his earlier AF days and while they were breaking their backs fixing aging block 30 aircraft which were 15 years old and older, the Singapore squadron paid a visit for training with their brand spanking new planes and we were moving towards building (and funding) Israel these new block 52's loaded to the hilt. It really sends a nice message to our guys in uniform, don't you think?

Why should we take care of ANYONE'S military ahead of ours??? That is what I just cannot understand at all. We should have sold our aging fleet to our allies and given our soldiers new planes to work on. Does that not make sense?? Or let the countries purchase the planes with their money.

I guess people who disagree can say that building up Israel economically and militarily is in our "nation's best interests" but I refuse to believe that there is any better way to make this nation safer then to take care of our infrastructure, military and well being of our citizens first. Whatever is left over - fine give it to Israel or Japan or any other nation we see fit.

Anyway, I am beating a dead horse here I know.
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Old 12-19-2006, 01:20 AM
 
4,247 posts, read 9,211,729 times
Reputation: 1457
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiru View Post
I welcome peaceful debate!
The land is Palestine, not Israel. And interestingly, even though Britain supported the creation of the Israeli state, I doubt even the most stalwart Israel supporter can claim that the following statement from the Balfour Declaration can be found true:
"nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine"
Ok, I just realized you are not on the Israel side, so my points are irrelevant, which isn't to say I question your position, I just have to read more carefully. Thank you.
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Old 12-19-2006, 01:37 AM
 
4,247 posts, read 9,211,729 times
Reputation: 1457
Quote:
Originally Posted by winnie View Post
Why should we take care of ANYONE'S military ahead of ours??? That is what I just cannot understand at all. We should have sold our aging fleet to our allies and given our soldiers new planes to work on. Does that not make sense?? Or let the countries purchase the planes with their money.

I guess people who disagree can say that building up Israel economically and militarily is in our "nation's best interests" but I refuse to believe that there is any better way to make this nation safer then to take care of our infrastructure, military and well being of our citizens first. Whatever is left over - fine give it to Israel or Japan or any other nation we see fit.

Anyway, I am beating a dead horse here I know.
So, why do we? Why do we do this?
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Old 12-19-2006, 03:45 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,519 posts, read 43,895,981 times
Reputation: 19180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiru View Post
I welcome peaceful debate!

I base my belief on well documented historical references. Prior to World War 1 the area known as Palestine belonged to the Ottoman Empire and was populated by Arabs. After World War 1 and the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire the Western powers partitioned off the Empire and created many of the Middle East countries we know today: Israel, Lebanon, Turkey, Syria, etc. Now, as per various "negotiations", of which the Arab natives had no part in, the land, known as PALESTINE, came under British rule. This is also due in part to the fact that British forces were the ones to occupy the area during the war. At this time, Israel did not exist.
And your point is??? The United States originally belonged to the Native tribes, but that didn't stop us from taking over & claiming it as our own... every piece of land has gone through "change of ownership" over the years, but that doesn't mean the current inhabitants aren't allowed there. They obtained that land legally, and with the support of the United States, nonetheless. The reason people cry Anti-Semitism at comments like yours, is that I don't hear anyone complaining about who originally owned parts of Europe, North America, Australia, and so on.... get it? It's the targeting of Israel's policies that is a sign of prejudice, unless you're including every other related incident from other countries. While I am Jewish, I'm actually not a hardcore Zionist, so that's why I refuse to debate this issue in detail. But puuuulease... don't give us that crap about who it originally belonged to, unless you're in support of returning all U.S. soil to it's original owners.
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Old 12-19-2006, 04:27 AM
 
211 posts, read 222,391 times
Reputation: 84
Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
The United States originally belonged to the Native tribes,
Uh what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
The reason people cry Anti-Semitism at comments like yours, is that I don't hear anyone complaining about who originally owned parts of Europe, North America, Australia, and so on.... get it?
So, because Israel is a Jewish state criticism must be compared to other countries?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
It's the targeting of Israel's policies that is a sign of prejudice,
You need to get a clue, it's sickening the Zionist propaganda I read.

If I said this statement:
It's racist to criticize the policies of Russia.

Would it be valid? Why, in your opinion, do you think criticizing Israel is a "sign of prejudice?" Because you cannot dare criticize the "Jewish homeland?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
But puuuulease... don't give us that crap about who it originally belonged to,
Nobody is.

People complain about Israel's West Bank apartheid policies and occupation of land in direct violation of nearly a dozen UN resolutions.

They already have more territory then originally earmarked in the original UN Mandate (despite originally being a minority); yet still occupy the West Bank -- why? To continue on the Zionist path for "großte Israel".

Quote:
Originally Posted by gizmo980 View Post
unless you're in support of returning all U.S. soil to it's original owners.
What are you talking about? The United States was established in the 1700s.

Before the 1500s it was small scattering of savage tribes who warred each other and ran around scalping each other -- they had no written language, no wheel -- no civilization. And they certainly did not inhabit every inch of this country nor have they even attempted to map it.
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Old 12-19-2006, 05:02 AM
 
Location: Bay Area, CA
28,519 posts, read 43,895,981 times
Reputation: 19180
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNLove View Post
Uh what?
Obviously I meant the land, not the country as it was established...

Quote:
So, because Israel is a Jewish state criticism must be compared to other countries?
That's not at all what I said... read my post again - I said that it's only Anti-Semitic if you're targeting them above any other countries. Someone who concentrates their efforts and anger on a certain group is being prejudiced, no matter who the group is. And you're the one who's bringing up the fact that it's "Jewish", whereas I was speaking mainly of the political issues.

Quote:
You need to get a clue, it's sickening the Zionist propaganda I read.

If I said this statement:
It's racist to criticize the policies of Russia.

Would it be valid? Why, in your opinion, do you think criticizing Israel is a "sign of prejudice?" Because you cannot dare criticize the "Jewish homeland?"
Once again, missing the point... and as I said, I'm not really a Zionist, so don't lump me in with everything you read. Now you're being prejudiced simply by assuming all Jews have the same opinions! (kidding ) Does every Catholic support every action of the Vatican and Pope?
And yes, if you were ONLY criticizing Russian policies, you'd be acting unfairly toward the Russians. It's fine to question a country's policies, but singling out a nation is the very definition of prejudice.

Quote:
What are you talking about? The United States was established in the 1700s.

Before the 1500s it was small scattering of savage tribes who warred each other and ran around scalping each other -- they had no written language, no wheel -- no civilization. And they certainly did not inhabit every inch of this country nor have they even attempted to map it.
LOL... once again, I meant the land where U.S. now stands. There's not anything else I could call it, just as "Israel" and "Palestine" weren't always the names of that land. My point was that every piece of land goes through different inhabitants, sometimes under legal rule, and sometimes not... but the fact is, Israel exists now & has been legally as such since 1948. If the U.S. doesn't want to support the country, they should have said this from the beginning. It has nothing to do with being a Jewish state, it's simply a matter of ownership... I personally support sharing it with the Palestinian people, so don't consider is as only a "Jewish state". But to be fair, how many times have people in this forum referred to the U.S. as a "Christian country??" We can't argue about who the majority of the population are... and that ain't gonna change anytime soon!
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Old 12-19-2006, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Triangle, North Carolina
2,816 posts, read 9,241,399 times
Reputation: 1494
Quote:
Originally Posted by winnie View Post
I am sure this link is OK, so if anyone is interested in reading about the F-16 issue I alluded to in my last post, here it is:

http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapo...16i/F-16I.html

F-16's bought from Lockheed Martin, by Israel, with US govt aid. Basically, the US taxpayers are footing the bill in the end. And these birds are NOT cheap!

I want to make it clear I have absolutely NO beef with Israel, I mean why would any nation turn down such a generous package?

What I DO have a beef with is that this is the type of jet my DH crewed in his earlier AF days and while they were breaking their backs fixing aging block 30 aircraft which were 15 years old and older, the Singapore squadron paid a visit for training with their brand spanking new planes and we were moving towards building (and funding) Israel these new block 52's loaded to the hilt. It really sends a nice message to our guys in uniform, don't you think?

Why should we take care of ANYONE'S military ahead of ours??? That is what I just cannot understand at all. We should have sold our aging fleet to our allies and given our soldiers new planes to work on. Does that not make sense?? Or let the countries purchase the planes with their money.

I guess people who disagree can say that building up Israel economically and militarily is in our "nation's best interests" but I refuse to believe that there is any better way to make this nation safer then to take care of our infrastructure, military and well being of our citizens first. Whatever is left over - fine give it to Israel or Japan or any other nation we see fit.

Anyway, I am beating a dead horse here I know.
No, I don't think you are beating a dead horse, it is just business.
First, we as a people must get over the fact that "Peace" will come to the Middle East, it won't. Heck, they have been killing each other in the name of Religion since BC., and will continue to do so until the end of time.

One site I will always remember, back in the Cold War days, was the port of Alexandria. There was a large cargo ship from the US docking to unload mucho defensive items to the government of Egypt. This came about under the mirage of Peace that Jimmy Carter still claims in 79. You know, Egypt is our friend and loves us so. Now, let our defense contractors come in and update their military (I was attached to train their troops) we were there guarding the ship and then....... here comes the docking horns blowing to bring in another cargo ship. Within 30 minutes we are staring eye to eye with the armed guards of the Soviet Navy. Yep, they had an arms shipment too.

Move forward 2 months to Isreal. One thing I will give Isreal, though I may differ on some of their policies and ways of fostering cash out of the US, is their loyalty. Their Airborne units were top notch, no Soviet arms, no concern about getting popped when you turn your back and most of all these guys did not scrrew around.

Move forward to today. Yep, we still arm Isreal and we even arm Jordan, Egypt, Saudi, Kuwait, and providing billions to Iraq so they can slide into the arms of our enemies. I agree our foreign policy is a wreck, but what can you expect when we have a bunch of never served silver spoons running our nation and defense department. Why do you think there are so many General's going off the deep end.
Basically, Isreal could be our answer to peace in the Middle East with the US taking the "Communist" China policy. Just supply the merchandise, wink, and move out of the way. One could pretty much guarantee there would not be a nuclear threat in Iran, insurgencies, etc., since Isreal would just solve the issue by crushing the enemy.

Our issue today is political hacks "never serves" think our soldiers are Social Workers and the Muslim world is a group of Wal Mart Shopping, McDonalds eating, Jane Fonda's looking for love. Thus 3,000 dead in our current mess and others who have lost their lives in the meddling past since the 70's. Isreal realizes this. Now, as for Communist China, they are busy providing the other fellas since they could care less about peace and lives but how they can garner cheap resources to fill their expanding appetite.

Sorry, I know I am all over the board here. I always seem to sign on during busy periods and short time.

Regards
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Old 12-19-2006, 08:27 AM
 
Location: Springfield, Missouri
2,814 posts, read 11,943,728 times
Reputation: 2000001283
Quote:
Originally Posted by TNLove View Post

Israel uses Anti-semitism as a gauge to commit warcrimes and violate the UN.

Anyone else please read the Holocaust conference thread for a larger debate that deals with the apartheid policies in the West Bank and MoMark's attempts at "debating" (which incidentally is focused on calling me names and insults and telling me what I do and do not know then supporting the Israeli policies which I was critical of).
It's amazing how you contradict yourself even in your responses. Your comments from the Holocaust and this thread since you seem to believe that exonerates you...:
-It seems a lot of the people that are screaming for people who deny the Holocaust have done very little research on the topic, they "go with the flow" so to speak. What proof do you need, bags of ashes with names on them? Never seen pictures of the camps or piles of emaciated dead bodies dumped into huge ditches? Wow...and people who remind us of the Holocaust have "done very little research"..and you say this isn't anti-Semitic? Ask your supposed Jewish mother what the definition means then since you keep using her supposed Jewishness to defend your comments
-If there is so much evidence it did exist, why would you be thrown in prison for stating your opinion. That's like throwing someone in jail for disagreeing with the colour of the sky. Again, if you need more proof that the Holocaust existed, maybe a trip to Poland might be in order, or the Holocaust Museum in Israel. How you trivialize what is perhaps the most evil episode in human history is indefensible.
-It seems Israel uses "the Holocaust" to commit their warcrimes in Palestine. Where are you examples and facts? You've given none. Is it just enough for arguments sake to throw these statements out unsupported?
-They practice apartheid. Non-Jews cannot marry a Jew and I don't believe they can even own property. And you ask me why I've called you anti-Semitic! Nice choice of words with the word Apartheid! This demonstrates you don't know the religion you say you claim for yourself through you mother. I'm a fundamentalist Christian with my mother a Christian Irish citizen and I know more than you..the claimed son of a Polish Jew? Do you begin to see where you lose credibility? How could a person who claims his mother is Jewish state that Jews cannot marry non-Jews?
-Maybe you should read more. Israel forces the Palestinians to live in abject poverty and engages in apartheid with their Arab minority. I already blew this false statement apart in outlining Israel's parliament and also Israel's declaration of independence which offered full and equal citizenship to all arabs within the newly created state of Israel.
-Your dual intelligence is showing, don't worry it's common, ask Wolf Blitzer.My dual intelligence, like that "Jewish guy" Wolf Blitzer....(right...and you're not making an anti-Semitic comment here are you! No, must just be a fluke misconception!)
-I posted that Israel, a nation of 7 million or so, is the largest recipient of foreign aid. The living standard is comparable to Western Europe. The second largest recipient is Egypt, an impoverished country of 80 million.
(You totally ignored my question on foreign aid, which was all fact, and simply danced around it.)
-You've totally ignored all comments on foreign aid (a very debately subject which you've flat out refused and said my facts were not true -- despite that they are). Actually, I addressed your comments head on. I pointed out that you using the economic facts have zip to do with the aid Israel receives as 1/9 is economic and 8/9 is military. What about that rebuttal didn't you understand? You stated: Israel: 7 million, First World Living Standard.
Egypt: 77 Million, Third World Living Standard. Why would this be pertinent information if your point wasn't that aid to Israel is unfair because of its economic status? Why did you leave out the fact that only 1/9 is economic and the rest military aid? Convenience for your argument? How did I totally ignore your comment on foreign aide? In fact, I tore your biased argument apart!

-When Israel's apparent acts of terrorism are described it goes into an incredibly long spiel about the Holocaust and how Israel is some innocent victim in the Middle East. It reeks of the same things Israel always claims -- [color="RoyalBlue"]they use the Holocaust to be able to act with impunity in the Middle East[/COLOR. Please name ONE example of Israel having used the Holocaust to justify an act of "terrorism"? How about a fact to go with this bold statement? Give one example where Israel claims it's an innocent victim in the Middle East because of the Holocaust?\

Last edited by MoMark; 12-19-2006 at 09:16 AM..
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Old 12-19-2006, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Journey's End
10,189 posts, read 24,585,925 times
Reputation: 3832
Kiru, thank you for your long and intended history lesson. I am aware of much of what you share. However, what you fail to include is (a) intention and (b) earlier and relevant historical fact.

As one of the other posters here just added, it is over-done, a bad slice of history, that we continue to rehash. (no pun intended).

The facts are, there is an Israel today; Arabs and those of the Jewish faith, live there, and they need to resolve with international support a way to live together.

Or are you suggesting like the President of Iran that we wipe the 6-odd million Jews living in Israel off the map?

Again, many thanks for taking the time to elaborate on your thoughts.

Peace be with us all.
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