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people cannot be antisemitic against, people who are not Semite, the people living today in a country named Israel, are not descendants of the Israelite from the bible. there might be very few people now a day who are of the tribe of Judah, but 99 percent are Europeans who claim to be Jewish.
Maybe you are right and all the DNA studies are wrong.
No supporting Israel and America both is not mutually exclusive at all since I think our national interests are aligned so Jews with an attachment to Israel don't bother me the way I'm bothered by Muslims and Mexicans with dual loyalties since Mexican and American interests are diametrically opposed. (for example something that benefits Mexico like NAFTA and DACA hurts America.) However why do more American Jews not adopt a more protectionist American stance vs how they are very protectionist of Israel? Chuck Schumer supports Israel's border walls even though he's one of the leaders opposing the Mexican border wall. If he's involved in Israel he should know from Israel that walls work.
Even after so many generations here, many American Jews still identity with the "outsider" rather than the native. My own parents were born outside the US and came LEGALLY and I see America as my native country and am very defensive about illegal immigration and not allowing people here who shouldn't be here and I support the wall very strongly and don't support DACA for instance. I also want American interests to take precedence over that of any other country including China which is where my ancestry is from so I'm not into the globalist approach where America must make sacrifices such as lost jobs and dying towns to benefit the economies of the Third World .
Many Jews do not fit your description. Me, Matt Drudge, Andrew Breitbart, Ben Stein, Marc Levin, Ben Shapiro, etc. But I think even your thoughts on people like Chuck Schumer are misguided. Nobody dislikes Chuck Schumer more than I do, because I think he makes other Jews a target of the kinds of things you are saying. As many bad things as I could say about the guy, I do think his hypocrisy is misguided. I think in his mind, he believes what he is proposing is right for America, and not some nefarious plan to destroy America.
Originally Posted by jbgusaIt is human nature to be "anti-" your opponents, when they seek to discriminate against you or worse.
To which I replied with the definitive and most comprehensive post in this thread that details the blood curdling anti-gentile doctrine that is the heart of Judaism:
As I've stated, it's not applicable to all instances, but in many cases, antisemites use Israel bashing as an attack against Jews.
And Jewish anti-Europeans lead the charge in openly attacking Europeans and their interests, both in the United States and in Europe.
Perhaps initial Jewish worldwide opposition to the nationalist Germans was because they hate Germans?
Similar to your reasoning as to why people attack Israel.
Because your group opposes nationalism for all other peoples but yourselves, and embraces a supremacist political double standard, you will never find true success with your self-interested pro-nationalist propaganda here or in the wider world.
The ultimate result of your efforts here is to hammer home the perception of the Jewish double standard.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD
You are very wrong on this. How much time do you spend around Jews?
AMD, I will answer you with the following caveat: I generally like you and what you have to say. I have some empathy for you and your position as a person, though not as a politically interested member of the larger Jewish group.
However, that does not over-ride the necessity to see the larger picture.
Quote:
American Jews consider themselves to be American first and foremost. Even most of the liberal ones. They celebrate the 4th of July, Thanksgiving, and every other American holiday, just like everyone else.
This is where you and many Jews are mistaken in their characterization of what it means to be an American. It is an often repeated characterization on the part of Jews that I have come to take a more cynical view of over time. It is a typical Jewish analysis of non-Jewish culture, which predictably frames the culture to be superficial. In doing so, Judaism and its various nationalist expressions are implied and contrasted as naturally deeper and more legitimate.
More important, it disingenuously frames the culture as something that Jews can adopt while maintaining their Jewish nationalism. It does so by stripping the gentile culture of its most meaningful nationalist requirements that would conflict with loyalty to Judaism. In fact, stripping gentile cultures of these conflicting nationalist requirements is observably one of the primary political goals of galut Jewish politicians and other Jewish influencers.
Allow me to illustrate for you what the concept of being an American actually means in its historical context:
The best and most accurate illustration of Americanism in recent history, for better or worse, is when the bulk of the American Army in WWI and WWII was comprised of Americans of Germanic descent who went off to wage war against their brothers and cousins for the ostensible benefit of America.
That's what being an American is.
I have never in my life gotten an inkling of that type of American loyalty from any Jewish man. The only impression that I have ever gotten from Jews is that, if it came down to it, they would defend the State of Israel and its people with their lives over the United States and its people.
I know for a fact that Jews would not rush to sign up for the United States Army, in the manner that American-Germans did to fight Germany, if we ever went to war with Israel.
American Jews don't even do that now in peacetime in any significant number, and largely opt to join the IDF.
I would expect the Neocons, who are the political representation of Jewish conservatives in this nation, to don suicide vests.
Would Jews shoot Jews to defend non-Jews?
The notion is antithetical to the core tenet of Judaism. For a Jewish man to agree that he would is either to lie or to abandon Judaism.
You know that this is true.
Yet, shooting Jews to protect non-Jewish Americans is what would be required in that hypothetical circumstance to be considered an American.
This illustration is why we cannot accept your claim that Jews consider themselves to be American first and foremost. They would choose Israel over America in a life and death struggle.
This single loyalty within the United States, to a nation other than the United States, is contributing to the other reactionary nationalisms that are emerging. No one wants to be the sucker that gives up his ethno-nationalist interest to be an "American" when not everyone does.
This clear double standard, and the attempt to strip all other nationalism of its core meaning and requirements in order to accommodate the international-nationalists that are Jews, is why there is antisemitism.
That effort to essentially destroy all other meaningful nationalism is also seen as one in the same with Jewish efforts to support social perversions of traditional gentile culture.
Quote:
I also believe in, and support Isreal. It’s not like the two are mutually exclusive.
To which I replied with the definitive and most comprehensive post in this thread that details the blood curdling anti-gentile doctrine that is the heart of Judaism:
And Jewish anti-Europeans lead the charge in openly attacking Europeans and their interests, both in the United States and in Europe.
Perhaps initial Jewish worldwide opposition to the nationalist Germans was because they hate Germans?
Similar to your reasoning as to why people attack Israel.
Because your group opposes nationalism for all other peoples but yourselves, and embraces a supremacist political double standard, you will never find true success with your self-interested pro-nationalist propaganda here or in the wider world.
The ultimate result of your efforts here is to hammer home the perception of the Jewish double standard.
AMD, I will answer you with the following caveat: I generally like you and what you have to say. I have some empathy for you and your position as a person, though not as a politically interested member of the larger Jewish group.
However, that does not over-ride the necessity to see the larger picture.
This is where you and many Jews are mistaken in their characterization of what it means to be an American. It is an often repeated characterization on the part of Jews that I have come to take a more cynical view of over time. It is a typically superficial Jewish analysis of non-Jewish culture, which predictably frames the culture to be superficial. In doing so, Judaism and its various nationalist expressions are implied and contrasted as naturally deeper and more legitimate.
Allow me to illustrate for you what the concept of being an American actually means in its historical context:
The best and most accurate illustration of Americanism in recent history, for better or worse, is when the bulk of the American Army in WWI and WWII was comprised of Americans of Germanic descent who went off to wage war against their brothers and cousins for the ostensible benefit of America.
That's what being an American is.
I have never in my life gotten an inkling of that type of American loyalty from any Jewish man, famous or not. The only impression that I have ever gotten from Jews is that, if it came down to it, they would defend the State of Israel and its people with their lives over the United States and its people.
I know for a fact that Jews would not rush to sign up for the United States Army, in the manner that American-Germans did to fight Germany, if we ever went to war with Israel.
American Jews don't even do that now in peacetime in any significant number, and largely opt to join the IDF.
I would expect the Neocons, who are the political representation of Jewish conservatives in this nation, to don suicide vests.
This illustration is why we cannot accept your claim that Jews consider themselves to be American first and foremost. They would choose Israel over America in a life and death struggle.
This single loyalty within the United States, to a nation other than the United States, is contributing to the other reactionary nationalisms that are emerging. No one wants to be the sucker that gives up his ethno-nationalist interest to be an "American" when not everyone does.
They are. That's how nationalist identity works.
Thanks for demonstrating the link between Jew-hatred and complaints about Israel.
I of course will put my religion, Christianity, above all else. But thankfully, at least as of now, my religion is not in conflict with my two main other identities as a Southerner and an American since America is a Christian and Christianity in particular is an integral part of Southern culture.
As for Jews it's not that I don't think they consider themselves Americans, they still don't consider America their native country to the extent that they consider Israel their homeland. So many prominent Jewish liberals (and most American Jews are liberal) are against the very idea of a Mexican border wall and want us to accept more Muslim refugees even thoguh they support Israel's border walls and support Israel's need to preserve their culture and not allow non-Jewish refugees. If American Jews considered this their native land, they would also want to preserve it as badly as they want to preserve Israel and Israel's culture.
Most of the anti-Semitic attacks in Europe are committed by Muslim immigrants and refugees btw not by neo-Nazis. Yet for some reason many American Jews want our country to open the floodgates to the same people that are attacking them in Europe and trying to destroy Israel. I do think that Jews in the US, while American and acculturated, still have a more distinct identity than Irish Americans or Italian Americans after this many generations in the US.
Are you saying America is Christian?
I don't think so, and not everyone against Trump's border wall is for illegal immigration, and immigration doesn't mean people can't preserve their culture, and...
Agree, but no one has made that assertion (edited to add - see below). Arabs will make that point in the negative (that they should not be the ones to suffer), which was your original point. The Grand Mufti was prominent so his ties to Nazi Germany are frequently connected to the Arabs, as an expression of his and then generalized to their inherent antipathy.
Though you tend to confuse the issue(s) a bit, at least you are willing to consider them objectively...
My "original point" was/is that what happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany later became a problem for Arabs in the Middle East. Zionism became a problem for the Arabs in the ME, and much of that "worthless land" the Jews "overpaid for" was going on without the Palestinian Arabs recognizing the Zionist plan at work, until it was a little too much a little too late.
A religious variety of Zionism supports Jews upholding their Jewish identity defined as adherence to religious Judaism, opposes the assimilation of Jews into other societies, and has advocated the return of Jews to Israel as a means for Jews to be a majority nation in their own state. A variety of Zionism, called cultural Zionism, founded and represented most prominently by Ahad Ha'am, fostered a secular vision of a Jewish "spiritual center" in Israel. Unlike Herzl, the founder of political Zionism, Ahad Ha'am strived for Israel to be "a Jewish state and not merely a state of Jews".
Advocates of Zionism view it as a national liberation movement for the repatriation of a persecuted people residing as minorities in a variety of nations to their ancestral homeland. Critics of Zionism view it as a colonialist, racist and exceptionalist ideology that led advocates to violence during Mandatory Palestine, followed by the exodus of Palestinians, and the subsequent denial of their right to return to property lost during the 1948 war.
What is the right or wrong about any of this? Well again needless to say, depends on your bias, but objectively speaking, the wrong tends to pop out at you. Simple as that...
Terrorism seems to "originate" or "target" those places where Israel and Jews have influence or strategic interests , for eg, Syria, Golan heights, Iran, 9/11(New york),Pakistan etc.
The car rammings in France and Germany (Christmas market)? The airport bombing in Brussels? Those were somehow Jewish interests?
And if they were somehow Jewish interests, that makes the attacks acceptable?
More important, it disingenuously frames the culture as something that Jews can adopt while maintaining their Jewish nationalism. It does so by stripping the gentile culture of its most meaningful nationalist requirements that would conflict with loyalty to Judaism. In fact, stripping gentile cultures of these conflicting nationalist requirements is observably one of the primary political goals of galut Jewish politicians and other Jewish influencers.
Both Gentile culture(s) and Jewish culture(s) can be expressed in nationalistic terms. Movements towards nationalism in the United States (fears of multiculturalism etc.) are counterbalanced by the liberalism shown both by non-Jews and Jews. That this country has multiple gentile cultures (even within the English-speaking white Christian segments) has been part of American history prior to the Founding, and it forms the base for much of our current political dissent.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golgi1
This clear double standard, and the attempt to strip all other nationalism of its core meaning and requirements in order to accommodate the international-nationalists that are Jews, is why there is antisemitism.
That effort to essentially destroy all other meaningful nationalism is also seen as one in the same with Jewish efforts to support social perversions of traditional gentile culture.
They are. That's how nationalist identity works.
The inherent tension between humanism and tribalism is far from played out in human history, with Israel but one manifestation. It strikes me that the core of your argument against Judaism is not so much that it is tribal but that American culture (or how you envision it) is not tribal enough.
Israelis arguably do attempt to "destroy" Palestinian nationalism. Nationalist movements have not treated Jews well. There may well be an inherent theoretical conflict between Jewish-expressed concerns about nationalism and various Israeli actions. Many liberal Jews criticize Israelis for that reason. Israeli culture is not necessarily identical with Jewish culture, especially liberal American Jewish culture as its developed over generations in the United States.
Likewise, religious extremism also is antithetical to humanism although it may or may not be paired with nationalism (and the other way around). Sure, I find much to criticize about how the religious-motivated (some) settlers are capturing Israeli politics just as I decry the manner in which rightwing religious movements invade US politics.
To which I replied with the definitive and most comprehensive post in this thread that details the blood curdling anti-gentile doctrine that is the heart of Judaism:
And Jewish anti-Europeans lead the charge in openly attacking Europeans and their interests, both in the United States and in Europe.
Perhaps initial Jewish worldwide opposition to the nationalist Germans was because they hate Germans?
Similar to your reasoning as to why people attack Israel.
Because your group opposes nationalism for all other peoples but yourselves, and embraces a supremacist political double standard, you will never find true success with your self-interested pro-nationalist propaganda here or in the wider world.
The ultimate result of your efforts here is to hammer home the perception of the Jewish double standard.
AMD, I will answer you with the following caveat: I generally like you and what you have to say. I have some empathy for you and your position as a person, though not as a politically interested member of the larger Jewish group.
However, that does not over-ride the necessity to see the larger picture.
This is where you and many Jews are mistaken in their characterization of what it means to be an American. It is an often repeated characterization on the part of Jews that I have come to take a more cynical view of over time. It is a typical Jewish analysis of non-Jewish culture, which predictably frames the culture to be superficial. In doing so, Judaism and its various nationalist expressions are implied and contrasted as naturally deeper and more legitimate.
More important, it disingenuously frames the culture as something that Jews can adopt while maintaining their Jewish nationalism. It does so by stripping the gentile culture of its most meaningful nationalist requirements that would conflict with loyalty to Judaism. In fact, stripping gentile cultures of these conflicting nationalist requirements is observably one of the primary political goals of galut Jewish politicians and other Jewish influencers.
Allow me to illustrate for you what the concept of being an American actually means in its historical context:
The best and most accurate illustration of Americanism in recent history, for better or worse, is when the bulk of the American Army in WWI and WWII was comprised of Americans of Germanic descent who went off to wage war against their brothers and cousins for the ostensible benefit of America.
That's what being an American is.
I have never in my life gotten an inkling of that type of American loyalty from any Jewish man. The only impression that I have ever gotten from Jews is that, if it came down to it, they would defend the State of Israel and its people with their lives over the United States and its people.
I know for a fact that Jews would not rush to sign up for the United States Army, in the manner that American-Germans did to fight Germany, if we ever went to war with Israel.
American Jews don't even do that now in peacetime in any significant number, and largely opt to join the IDF.
I would expect the Neocons, who are the political representation of Jewish conservatives in this nation, to don suicide vests.
Would Jews shoot Jews to defend non-Jews?
The notion is antithetical to the core tenet of Judaism. For a Jewish man to agree that he would is either to lie or to abandon Judaism.
You know that this is true.
Yet, shooting Jews to protect non-Jewish Americans is what would be required in that hypothetical circumstance to be considered an American.
This illustration is why we cannot accept your claim that Jews consider themselves to be American first and foremost. They would choose Israel over America in a life and death struggle.
This single loyalty within the United States, to a nation other than the United States, is contributing to the other reactionary nationalisms that are emerging. No one wants to be the sucker that gives up his ethno-nationalist interest to be an "American" when not everyone does.
This clear double standard, and the attempt to strip all other nationalism of its core meaning and requirements in order to accommodate the international-nationalists that are Jews, is why there is antisemitism.
That effort to essentially destroy all other meaningful nationalism is also seen as one in the same with Jewish efforts to support social perversions of traditional gentile culture.
They are. That's how nationalist identity works.
I would be lying if I said this does not give me some things to think about, but after giving it some thought, I believe your examples lack the nuance that such questions require.
I grew up as a Miami Dolphin fan, living just 10 miles away from (what was then) Giants stadium. I was like 5 years old, and I guess I liked their helmet or something, but it stuck and I was a fan into my adulthood. Fast forward to now, where I have kids of my own, all Giants fans. So for the last 15 years I have been taking them to Giants games and rooting for the Giants. I consider myself a Giants fan and a Dolphin fan. I root for both teams to win. Once every four years, they play each other, and I am very conflicted and cant bring myself to root for one over the other. I usually dont watch that game, because I wish the best for both teams. I love them both and the result gives me no joy no matter who wins.
The idea of America going to war with Israel is unfathomable to me. But I have French heritage, and if we were at war with France (assuming for good reason), I would kill French Jews without a thought about it.
Israel is different because given history, it is reassuring to me to have one tiny country on the planet that is a majority Jewish people. If Germany (or any country) started rounding up Jews, I know that Israel wouldnt wait for years before sending their military. It would be immediate.
Also, with the current Muslim problem in Europe, Jews have a place to flee to and become instant citizens. That is reassuring to me as well.
So if we were at war with Israel, there are instances where I would fight against them. But the reasons I would take up arms against Israel are, again, unfathomable to me. One would be if Israel attacked our homeland.
But on the flip side, if one day, our government was overrun with Muslims, (also unfathomable) and we were attacking Israel because Muslims only want Muslim countries in the Middle East, I would not take up arms against Israel. But then, this would no longer be the America that I know and love.
Edit: To add to this, also, I believe if we went to war with the Vatican, there would be many American Catholics that would be conflicted. I wouldn’t think that makes them less American.
Last edited by AnesthesiaMD; 03-29-2019 at 11:01 AM..
Both Gentile culture(s) and Jewish culture(s) can be expressed in nationalistic terms. Movements towards nationalism in the United States (fears of multiculturalism etc.) are counterbalanced by the liberalism shown both by non-Jews and Jews. That this country has multiple gentile cultures (even within the English-speaking white Christian segments) has been part of American history prior to the Founding, and it forms the base for much of our current political dissent.
The inherent tension between humanism and tribalism is far from played out in human history, with Israel but one manifestation. It strikes me that the core of your argument against Judaism is not so much that it is tribal but that American culture (or how you envision it) is not tribal enough.
Israelis arguably do attempt to "destroy" Palestinian nationalism. Nationalist movements have not treated Jews well. There may well be an inherent theoretical conflict between Jewish-expressed concerns about nationalism and various Israeli actions. Many liberal Jews criticize Israelis for that reason. Israeli culture is not necessarily identical with Jewish culture, especially liberal American Jewish culture as its developed over generations in the United States.
Likewise, religious extremism also is antithetical to humanism although it may or may not be paired with nationalism (and the other way around). Sure, I find much to criticize about how the religious-motivated (some) settlers are capturing Israeli politics just as I decry the manner in which rightwing religious movements invade US politics.
And this is very true as well. When a Jew criticizes Israeli policies against (others), they are invariably liberal Jews. You rarely see this with conservative Jews. So this is a liberal problem, not a “Jewish” problem. That is where the hypocrisy lies. Conservative Jews are consistent on this.
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