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I'm not anti-Semitic, and again, I don't believe that thinking the government in Israel should just be able to do whatever they want, Palestinians be damned, is anti-Semitic
Many of us have tried to make this point with that poster, but she seems either incapable or unwilling to separate people's disdain for Israel's policies and politics with anti-Semitism.
Many of us have tried to make this point with that poster, but she seems either incapable or unwilling to separate people's disdain for Israel's policies and politics with anti-Semitism.
Anti-Semitism is always uncalled for and generally comes from a place of ignorance. Criticism of the behavior of the state of Israel is warranted due to its often horrid behavior toward Palestinians and its plunge into ultra nationalism. Attempts to conflate the two are nothing more then cheap ploys to protect the Israeli government from criticism and justifiable condemnation.
I can't speak for Rachel but are you not now doing exactly what she just objected to above? Equating religion (Jewishness, opposite to Judaism, anti-Semitism) with the state of Israel? Truly not trying to play gotcha, but folks surely must see that having a conversation becomes downright difficult under some of these ground rules - particularly if we don't quite "get them."
Perhaps you don't see or don't agree with the distinction. imo, you'd be hard pressed to find a Jew who doesn't think Israel has a right to exist as a permanent nation and anyone who disagrees with that basic premise is anti-Semitic. Jews might disagree among themselves on expanding settlements, a two-state solution, even on the extent of U.S. foreign aid. On the existence of Israel or 'solutions' to the area's turmoil that place Israel at risk of demise, you're in anti-Semitism territory.
Anti-Semitism is always uncalled for and generally comes from a place of ignorance. Criticism of the behavior of the state of Israel is warranted due to its often horrid behavior toward Palestinians and its plunge into ultra nationalism. Attempts to conflate the two are nothing more then cheap ploys to protect the Israeli government from criticism and justifiable condemnation.
Or in the case of that particular poster, to pull the victim card and cry anti-Semitism anytime anyone is critical of Israel.
Perhaps you don't see or don't agree with the distinction. imo, you'd be hard pressed to find a Jew who doesn't think Israel has a right to exist as a permanent nation and anyone who disagrees with that basic premise is anti-Semitic. Jews might disagree among themselves on expanding settlements, a two-state solution, even on the extent of U.S. foreign aid. On the existence of Israel or 'solutions' to the area's turmoil that place Israel at risk of demise, you're in anti-Semitism territory.
When I wrote: Equating religion (Jewishness, opposite to Judaism, anti-Semitism) with the state of Israel? I was referring to Rachel's points made thru various threads that to mention Judaism (or bring in references to American Jews) when discussing Israel is potentially problematic. Her assertion is that the two should not be conflated. Doing so at a minimum tends to question the essential loyalty of American Jews etc.
Because Israel is a Jewish state it is a challenge not to mention Judaism and Israel simultaneously in some discussions. There is no way for AnesthesiaMD or you to make your points without doing so, hence my questioning whether AnesthesiaMD was in technical violation.
I should take the time but cannot now to dig up another comment on another thread by another poster that totally confused. The gist was that discussing or objecting to a specific Israeli policy was permissible but it had to be within a very narrow framework that appeared to not include religion or involve an Israeli policy connected to religion? Maybe tomorrow I'll go find it.
So what do I think about what you've said (the bold)? Never gave it much thought, actually. I suppose there's a case that a potential "right" might be made either way - Israel as a Jewish state or Israel with the original Palestinian occupants given citizenship. Recognizing that essential conflict, I chose Israel, or as it exists today. It never occurred to me that framing that decision as a "choice" (mine) instead of as an essential "right" might put me into anti-Semitism territory. I've always looked at it as an established fact - that I support - then left it at that.
Being in compliance with these new ground rules down to the precise terminology is NOT easy.
Last edited by EveryLady; 03-03-2019 at 05:34 PM..
I think it's jealousy and resentment, especially among people looking for a scapegoat. There's a big correlation between uneducated, poor people and degrees of anti-Semitism.
P.S. I should add that people who like to blame it on hostility on Israel don't know what they're talking about. Anti-Semitism has existed long before Israel's statehood. Just look at how Hitler demonized Jews.
Well, that sorta does away with any blame on "the left" or on fellow Jews.
BTW, I agree fully. REAL anti-Semitism is mostly jealousy with a side of scapegoating. Really successful people would have little reason to dabble in that. You don't see a lot of these educated folks at KKK meetings or rallies.
This is what I am saying, to which not one single liberal been able to agree (unless I've missed some posts).
Here is the truth:
1) Sometimes crititcism of Israel is not related to negativity toward Jews.
2) Sometimes criticism of Israel is absolutely driven by an underlying negativity toward Jews, and often I've heard people crititcal of Israel ALSO say blatantly antisemtitic drivel or demonstrate blatant double standards.
Not a single liberal here has been willing to agree with point 2. You all want to insist that condemnation of Israel NEVER is related to antisemitism - either fed by it or feeding it - and that's just blind denial.
You assume me to be liberal hence I will reply.
1) I dont criticize Israel because I dont have negativity towards Jews.
2) I dont criticize Jews because I dont have negativity towards Israel.
I only have a opinion that they have a lot of power in USA - from Treasury, Harvard, Hedge funds, NBA, NFL, Fed etc . I only consider them as a group of most successful American people, who come from a same religion.
Yes, Jewish hatred is what led up to the holocaust. As I understand it Israel was created in 49 and like you mentioned the hatred pre dates that time.
I'm just confused I guess. Just going off of the stereotype Jewish people in general tend to be hard working educated successful people. I'd much rather have them as neighbors than some dumb hillbilly redneck types.
WWI led to the Holcaust..or should I say the punishment of Germany after WW I led to the holocaust.
Germany was over punished...USA had a heavy hand in that...and she never recovered...actually oppressed the germen people so much they pretty much hated everyone after that.
Kinda like how our South , deep South, never has recovered from the loss in the civil war. Over punished and to this day hate everyone who isnt them.
Should have taught the survivors in the South how to work their own fields and work for a living themselves instead of just punishing them.
WWI led to the Holcaust..or should I say the punishment of Germany after WW I led to the holocaust.
Germany was over punished...USA had a heavy hand in that...and she never recovered...actually oppressed the germen people so much they pretty much hated everyone after that.
Kinda like how our South , deep South, never has recovered from the loss in the civil war. Over punished and to this day hate everyone who isnt them.
Should have taught the survivors in the South how to work their own fields and work for a living themselves instead of just punishing them.
How exactly was the South "over punished"? By trying to ensure African Americans had full citizenship rights?
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