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Old 04-03-2019, 11:13 AM
 
1,415 posts, read 1,087,060 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bawac34618 View Post
But in your ideal society, the church IS the state. So in essence it's the same thing, it's just a leftist authoritarian state doesn't claim it has authority from a divine being. You want a state church that enforces a set of cultural norms and mores on the populace and that punishes those who don't conform.

So, we're in America, freedom of religion, even if it is worshipping the devil... y'know... freedom.
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Old 04-03-2019, 11:21 AM
 
29,356 posts, read 9,541,969 times
Reputation: 3425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
Politics has replaced religion in many people's lives. Religion was useful in that it allowed people to be tribal in a largely theoretical domain. Sure, there were always elements of theocracy, but in the US at least these weakened as a place became more diverse.

Politics, on the other hand, is very powerful in the here and now. And now it's infused with religious fervor. Yuck!

We need religion to make a comeback so that people put their negative energies there. Jehovah, Allah, Buddha, Gaia, Sinatra... I don't care who you worship.

I just want the zealots out of public affairs.
You mean we need a miracle?

Your comment reminds me of two books I highly recommend to anyone curious about what makes people "tick." How we've come to where we are today as humans...

"Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind," and "A Brief History of Creation: Science and the Search for the Origin of Life."

Read these two books and if you can still believe what we need is more of what you think we need in the way of "worshiping" anything or anyone, I'd like to know why.

Zealots are not necessarily a bad thing if they push in the direction of right over wrong, better over worse. Not sure religious zealots have always done that. Just saying, but someone like Gandhi, you might say, was a "zealot" for Indian independence that certainly made a real positive change for his people. Buddha too.

I tend to think we need such a leader who can get more of us on board toward progress, toward what is better rather than worse. Forward rather than backward thinking. Something sort of the opposite of Trump...

Last edited by LearnMe; 04-03-2019 at 11:32 AM..
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Old 04-03-2019, 11:46 AM
 
23,763 posts, read 14,888,122 times
Reputation: 12817
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
We have lost not religion but some of its critical teachings
Civility and community


Nobody needs to move.

All any off us needs to do is accept that people who have a different POV are as entitled to it as we are to ours.

Our view of the world is based on our experience and education.

Things got really rancorous when we stared viewing people who had a different view as evil. That gave license to scream at an old man in a coffee shop for wearing a MAGA hat and such behavior.
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Old 04-03-2019, 11:57 AM
 
29,356 posts, read 9,541,969 times
Reputation: 3425
Quote:
Originally Posted by crone View Post


Nobody needs to move.

All any off us needs to do is accept that people who have a different POV are as entitled to it as we are to ours.

Our view of the world is based on our experience and education.

Things got really rancorous when we stared viewing people who had a different view as evil. That gave license to scream at an old man in a coffee shop for wearing a MAGA hat and such behavior.
What about if a person is a blatant racist, or sexist or white supremacist?

Where, how, do we distinguish between accepting alternative POV simply because everyone is entitled to think what they want vs pushing back against backward thinking? Should we be accepting of backward thinking? Racism again for example?

People behaving badly goes on all around us all the time. As always going back to the beginning. Some people are better than others in these respects. Some a lot worse. Some old men wearing MAGA hats are considered a real problem by lots of people, and some are. What to do about problem people tends to be a problem for a lot of people. Been a lot worse done than screaming, but most people simply don't scream at people they think are a problem.

Unfortunately, it gets a lot worse than that when "push actually gets to shove" between people who think and act so differently, not always just okay simply because everyone is entitled to their opinion...
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Old 04-03-2019, 12:07 PM
 
1,415 posts, read 1,087,060 times
Reputation: 853
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
What about if a person is a blatant racist, or sexist or white supremacist?

Where, how, do we distinguish between accepting alternative POV simply because everyone is entitled to think what they want vs pushing back against backward thinking? Should we be accepting of backward thinking? Racism again for example?

People behaving badly goes on all around us all the time. As always going back to the beginning. Some people are better than others in these respects. Some a lot worse. Some old men wearing MAGA hats are considered a real problem by lots of people, and some are. What to do about problem people tends to be a problem for a lot of people. Been a lot worse done than screaming, but most people simply don't scream at people they think are a problem.

Unfortunately, it gets a lot worse than that when "push actually gets to shove" between people who think and act so differently, not always just okay simply because everyone is entitled to their opinion...

When you address the racism coming from the people accusing everyone of being racist then we can start addressing the issue.
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Old 04-03-2019, 12:26 PM
 
23,763 posts, read 14,888,122 times
Reputation: 12817
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
What about if a person is a blatant racist, or sexist or white supremacist?

Where, how, do we distinguish between accepting alternative POV simply because everyone is entitled to think what they want vs pushing back against backward thinking? Should we be accepting of backward thinking? Racism again for example?

People behaving badly goes on all around us all the time. As always going back to the beginning. Some people are better than others in these respects. Some a lot worse. Some old men wearing MAGA hats are considered a real problem by lots of people, and some are. What to do about problem people tends to be a problem for a lot of people. Been a lot worse done than screaming, but most people simply don't scream at people they think are a problem.

Unfortunately, it gets a lot worse than that when "push actually gets to shove" between people who think and act so differently, not always just okay simply because everyone is entitled to their opinion...
You cannot change a racist mind in 2019. My mil was not an evil man. He was stupid.

IMO, people need to be more intentional. John Wesley, founder of the Methodist church, advocated people who knew slavery was wrong should not purchase goods made by the slave industry, such as rum and sugar. That was before the Constitution. I vote with my purse all day every day.

Yes, there are people like POC posters Rachel and Janelle who are so rooted in their opinion they will never be able to see that people with a different POV are not intrinsically evil. Why bother engaging with them?

Do what you can, when you can and pray each one teach one works. And don't beat your head against a brick wall.
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Old 04-03-2019, 12:34 PM
 
29,356 posts, read 9,541,969 times
Reputation: 3425
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedergras View Post
When you address the racism coming from the people accusing everyone of being racist then we can start addressing the issue.
When you address all the racists who are causing all the people to accuse everyone of being racist, we can start...

Right. Never mind...
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Old 04-03-2019, 12:38 PM
 
5,528 posts, read 3,210,090 times
Reputation: 7759
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
You mean we need a miracle?

Your comment reminds me of two books I highly recommend to anyone curious about what makes people "tick." How we've come to where we are today as humans...

"Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind," and "A Brief History of Creation: Science and the Search for the Origin of Life."

Read these two books and if you can still believe what we need is more of what you think we need in the way of "worshiping" anything or anyone, I'd like to know why.

Zealots are not necessarily a bad thing if they push in the direction of right over wrong, better over worse. Not sure religious zealots have always done that. Just saying, but someone like Gandhi, you might say, was a "zealot" for Indian independence that certainly made a real positive change for his people. Buddha too.

I tend to think we need such a leader who can get more of us on board toward progress, toward what is better rather than worse. Forward rather than backward thinking. Something sort of the opposite of Trump...
Very few people independently verify what they hear from others. For 99% of people knowledge of things beyond personal experience is based upon trusting one authority or another. You don't need to put on robes and talk about god to be a priest. All you need is conviction that you are right and a desire to sway people. There are religions without god all throughout life now, and priests of such who demand privileges in exchange for their "knowledge of the truth".

I do think zealots are a bad thing. It's dangerous to say, "THEIR zealotry is bad because they are wrong, but OUR zealotry is good because we are right."
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Old 04-03-2019, 12:46 PM
 
29,356 posts, read 9,541,969 times
Reputation: 3425
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
Very few people independently verify what they hear from others. For 99% of people knowledge of things beyond personal experience is based upon trusting one authority or another. You don't need to put on robes and talk about god to be a priest. All you need is conviction that you are right and a desire to sway people. There are religions without god all throughout life now, and priests of such who demand privileges in exchange for their "knowledge of the truth".

I do think zealots are a bad thing. It's dangerous to say, "THEIR zealotry is bad because they are wrong, but OUR zealotry is good because we are right."
Call it what you will...

For me it's just the age old issue of figuring out what is right vs wrong. Forward thinking vs backward thinking, and needless to say, we've all got our different ways of doing this, if we even bother. Of course, not all people are equal in these regards. Up to us to figure out what is what, whether we call it zealotry, extremism, radicalism, passion or the want to right over wrong. Hard to generalize in these regards, but for me, "I know it when I see it." Okay or not. Acceptable or not. Too much or too little. Right or wrong...

Whatever you or anyone else may be inclined to call it.
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Old 04-03-2019, 12:52 PM
 
5,528 posts, read 3,210,090 times
Reputation: 7759
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Call it what you will...

For me it's just the age old issue of figuring out what is right vs wrong. Forward thinking vs backward thinking, and needless to say, we've all got our different ways of doing this, if we even bother. Of course, not all people are equal in these regards. Up to us to figure out what is what, whether we call it zealotry, extremism, radicalism, passion or the want to right over wrong. Hard to generalize in these regards, but for me, "I know it when I see it." Okay or not. Acceptable or not. Too much or too little. Right or wrong...

Whatever you or anyone else may be inclined to call it.
Right and wrong, as theorized by humans, almost always boils down to rationalizations for self-interest. Self-interest may be "enlightened" (considering a long timeline) or short-sighted. Unless you're privy to some very rarefied info, I don't think you're able to sort out universal rights from universal wrongs any better or worse than anyone else.

People who start talking about right and wrong when they should be talking about your interests and my interests are the danger here. No need to universalize and totalize your desires. Just state them as such and advocate for them in a civil manner.
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