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Old 04-18-2019, 08:03 AM
 
15,105 posts, read 3,993,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
I think most conservatives would argue that, while the GOP in practice is pro-big-gov't, the Democratic party is pro-even bigger-gov't.
That's the "who beats their wife more" argument which isn't very sound...and surely not proven by history if one actually follows the ball.

I'd say we can largely summarize as the "conservatives" wanting all the money in their pockets (MIC, Medical, Tax Cuts, etc.) while the liberals want the money for the betterment of the General Welfare.

I have no problem with high tax rates. It's what I get for the money that matters. That's why I will never move my domicile from MA. FL. or to another place. I want that good health care...the money isn't the point, since I have the scratch to pay for it. It's just that I want value (life and health) for my hard earned dollars, whether from Medicare, deducts or straight out of my pocket.

I am truly amazed that anyone buys the "smaller government" argument any longer. It's not going to happen...never would and never will. Societies tend to move upward by grouping (the commons) and working together - that is what taxes fund.

It's what the taxes are used for that is the point of debate.

Repeating a Rushbo talking point is do easy and old. It's the old "in theory" debate! Rushbo wants to execute drug dealers and jail addicts except when HE does it. The most solid Libertarian I know is into the "commons" for 2 million plus. They all have their reasons including the best one "I didn't ask for it".

I feel our political discourse might get somewhere if we can dispense with the fairy tales of "small government". Then we can discuss "good government".
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Old 04-18-2019, 08:23 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 8 days ago)
 
47,987 posts, read 45,443,916 times
Reputation: 15310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redshadowz View Post
I agree. Which was my point of posting in this thread. It doesn't do much good to throw around statistics about blue or red without understanding them.

These threads just become mud-slinging contests by a bunch of Dunning-Krugers.
I don't buy the "red states are better than blue states" or "blue states are better than red states". I live in a red state. I can think of both blue and red states I would find to be better than where I live.
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Old 04-18-2019, 09:52 AM
Status: "Summer!" (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
86,985 posts, read 102,540,351 times
Reputation: 33045
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond 007 View Post
... and every single bottom 10 state in life expectancy is a red state.

And the much-hated California is #2.

Where you live in America determines when you’ll die

Below is the top 10:

You can complain about high taxes, high prices, large numbers of homeless, illegal immigrants or whatever else you want about the blue states, but there are few indicators that are a better gauge of the well-being of the population than life expectancy. And in that category, blue states stand head-and-shoulders above the red states.

There are some red states in the Plains and Rocky Mountains that do pretty well, but they still aren't as good as the top 10 blue states.
Colorado is not blue, it's purple.
https://www.5280.com/2018/11/colorad...least-for-now/
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Old 04-18-2019, 10:17 AM
 
Location: Texas
26,719 posts, read 11,205,600 times
Reputation: 6146
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
That's the "who beats their wife more" argument which isn't very sound...and surely not proven by history if one actually follows the ball.

I'd say we can largely summarize as the "conservatives" wanting all the money in their pockets (MIC, Medical, Tax Cuts, etc.) while the liberals want the money for the betterment of the General Welfare.

I have no problem with high tax rates. It's what I get for the money that matters. That's why I will never move my domicile from MA. FL. or to another place. I want that good health care...the money isn't the point, since I have the scratch to pay for it. It's just that I want value (life and health) for my hard earned dollars, whether from Medicare, deducts or straight out of my pocket.

I am truly amazed that anyone buys the "smaller government" argument any longer. It's not going to happen...never would and never will. Societies tend to move upward by grouping (the commons) and working together - that is what taxes fund.

It's what the taxes are used for that is the point of debate.

Repeating a Rushbo talking point is do easy and old. It's the old "in theory" debate! Rushbo wants to execute drug dealers and jail addicts except when HE does it. The most solid Libertarian I know is into the "commons" for 2 million plus. They all have their reasons including the best one "I didn't ask for it".

I feel our political discourse might get somewhere if we can dispense with the fairy tales of "small government". Then we can discuss "good government".
Conservatives want less government. Progressives want more because they are not adult enough to run their lives. So they steal from others. Sleazy.

The most pathetic characteristic is how they avoid discussing policy since their policies are known failures. That's just a fact. Facts are something the big government wards of the state refuse to accept.

I feel our political discourse might get somewhere if we can dispense with the dishonesty and deflection from the big government supporters. Then we can discuss the power of individual states and all the options that come with it. But when people like you, who love big government, refuse to discuss policy, the truth will never come out. That's what the progressives fear. The truth. Who is going to raise them if government won't?
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Old 04-18-2019, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Texas
26,719 posts, read 11,205,600 times
Reputation: 6146
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I don't buy the "red states are better than blue states" or "blue states are better than red states". I live in a red state. I can think of both blue and red states I would find to be better than where I live.
lol Who lives in place A when place B and Place C are better? Take charge of your own life and make better decisions. Quit waiting on government to run your life.
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Old 04-18-2019, 10:57 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 8 days ago)
 
47,987 posts, read 45,443,916 times
Reputation: 15310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katarina Witt View Post
Well, it's less conservative than Georgia, where I currently live.
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Old 04-18-2019, 11:33 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 8 days ago)
 
47,987 posts, read 45,443,916 times
Reputation: 15310
Life expectancy has so many variables in it. Being a red state or blue state isn't the biggest indicator.. Being a Democrat or Republican isn't a factor either. Take Utah. That is a very Republican state. Utah ranks high in terms of life expectancy, ranking #10 out of 50. Mississippi and West Virginia are Republican states. They rank last and next to last in life expectancy, respectively.

And there is a reason I brought up both states. Yes, I know Mississippi has the highest percentage of Blacks of any state. I know Blacks have the lowest life expectancy of any group outside of Native Americans. West Virginia is 2nd to last in life expectancy: Whites are 93% of WV's population while Blacks are 3.4% of WV's population.

Utah is a state where most of it's population is part of the Mormon Church. Smoking and drinking alcohol are basically forbidden. Utah has an outdoorsy lifestyle, so less obesity. The diet is Utah is less fattening that what you might find in Mississippi. Utah has a lower infant mortality rate than most states and a low murder rate.

Mississippi has a high murder rate and a high infant mortality rate. The diet in Mississippi is not very healthy. So much fried food it's ridiculous. Alot of smoking in Mississippi. High rates of obesity.

West Virginia is a state ravaged by abuses in the coal industry. Alot of people are exposed to water pollution. And then there is black lung disease among those who worked in the coal mines for years. West Virginia one of the highest rates of smoking in the USA. And then there is the drug addiction issue. West Virginia is home to Mc Dowell and Wyoming County. Both counties have the highest and 2nd highest death rates from drugs in the nation.
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Old 04-18-2019, 05:33 PM
 
15,105 posts, read 3,993,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
Utah ranks high in terms of life expectancy, ranking #10 out of 50. Mississippi and West Virginia are Republican states. They rank last and next to last in life expectancy, respectively.

And there is a reason I brought up both states. Yes, I know Mississippi has the highest percentage of Blacks of any state. I know Blacks have the lowest life expectancy of any group outside of Native Americans. West Virginia is 2nd to last in life expectancy: Whites are 93% of WV's population while Blacks are 3.4% of WV's population.

Utah is a state where most of it's population is part of the Mormon Church. Smoking and drinking alcohol are basically forbidden. Utah has an outdoorsy lifestyle, so less obesity. The diet is Utah is less fattening that what you might find in Mississippi. Utah has a lower infant mortality rate than most states and a low murder rate.

Mississippi has a high murder rate and a high infant mortality rate. The diet in Mississippi is not very healthy. So much fried food it's ridiculous. Alot of smoking in Mississippi. High rates of obesity.

West Virginia is a state ravaged by abuses in the coal industry. Alot of people are exposed to water pollution. And then there is black lung disease among those who worked in the coal mines for years. West Virginia one of the highest rates of smoking in the USA. And then there is the drug addiction issue. West Virginia is home to Mc Dowell and Wyoming County. Both counties have the highest and 2nd highest death rates from drugs in the nation.
UT. is a known outlier. Mormonism is, IMHO, a religion of money and that ties in with relatively clean living and lots of space, which are generally healthy.

Remember, in the Deep South whites don't fare well either - for example, suicide in AL among whites is vastly higher than blacks and also much higher than the rest of the country.

Mining is long gone in WV as a percentage of the population (only 13K miners today!) and pollution is generally worse if many urban areas - with much higher life expectancies. So the black lung and poison thing, IMHO, is not relevant today in terms of statistics among millions. It is mostly due to depression, loneliness, lack of medical care and bad nutrition...lack of education, so to speak.

Let's look at it this way. Are there many states where things have been going very well in terms of economics and everything else that is NOT turning more purple or blue?

The way I see it states with rotting industrial bases like MI and WI went "swing" due to how bad things were/are. States where things are improving economically in a diverse fashion, even Texas, are turning more liberal. Look at Ted Cruz "It was the closest a Democrat came to toppling a Republican incumbent U.S. senator since 1978. " - 1978....think about that!

Stating a generalization is not the same as a saying ALL cases are the same. They surely are not. But disaffected people...the so-called "forgotten man" is/was a real thing and he and she are still forgotten while other areas of the country are booming.

BTW, it's easy enough to look up longevity by race. BUT, I'm not sure why it would be important in this case since we are discussing how society and government in general treat HUMAN BEINGS that live within their states, counties and cities.
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Old 04-18-2019, 10:17 PM
 
21,483 posts, read 13,680,648 times
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Every single top 10 state in life expectancy is a blue state ...


Not surprising at all. They have both coasts with the millionaires and billionaires who can afford the best in medical treatment. Also, the red states have the really dangerous jobs in oil, mines, forestry, etc etc etc.
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Old 04-19-2019, 06:47 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 8 days ago)
 
47,987 posts, read 45,443,916 times
Reputation: 15310
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
UT. is a known outlier. Mormonism is, IMHO, a religion of money and that ties in with relatively clean living and lots of space, which are generally healthy.

Remember, in the Deep South whites don't fare well either - for example, suicide in AL among whites is vastly higher than blacks and also much higher than the rest of the country.

Mining is long gone in WV as a percentage of the population (only 13K miners today!) and pollution is generally worse if many urban areas - with much higher life expectancies. So the black lung and poison thing, IMHO, is not relevant today in terms of statistics among millions. It is mostly due to depression, loneliness, lack of medical care and bad nutrition...lack of education, so to speak.

Let's look at it this way. Are there many states where things have been going very well in terms of economics and everything else that is NOT turning more purple or blue?

The way I see it states with rotting industrial bases like MI and WI went "swing" due to how bad things were/are. States where things are improving economically in a diverse fashion, even Texas, are turning more liberal. Look at Ted Cruz "It was the closest a Democrat came to toppling a Republican incumbent U.S. senator since 1978. " - 1978....think about that!

Stating a generalization is not the same as a saying ALL cases are the same. They surely are not. But disaffected people...the so-called "forgotten man" is/was a real thing and he and she are still forgotten while other areas of the country are booming.

BTW, it's easy enough to look up longevity by race. BUT, I'm not sure why it would be important in this case since we are discussing how society and government in general treat HUMAN BEINGS that live within their states, counties and cities.
I know UT is an outlier. That is why I brought it up. My whole point was to show how much the Mormon Church is contributing to a high life expectancy in Utah. No smoking, no drinking, healthy eating. In addition to that, an outdoorsy, athletic lifestyle similar to Colorado.

The Deep South has never fared well at all. Historically, the Deep South has been a region of high poverty levels, and the stuff that comes with that. Up until the 1940s, hookworm and pellagra (malnutrition disease due to lack of Niacin) were big problems in the Deep South. And historically, the South has been one of the most violent regions in the USA.

Mining employment has decreased alot for WV's employment. However, working underground in a coal mine will decrease your life expectancy alot. There were people who worked in the coal industry back in the 80s and 90s who are already sick or have died from black lung disease. Less people in the coal industry, but there were more going back the 70s, 80s, and 90s. And that was just ONE factor I was considering. It cannot be ruled out. I also mentioned that the water pollution has been a big problem in West Virginia as a result of certain abuses from coal companies. Something else. West Virginia has one of the smallest populations in the USA. The cities in WV might have some air pollution issues, but alot of areas outside the cities have water pollution. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47165522
I also mentioned the drug crisis in West Virginia. That is a big factor.


My whole point is that you have to look at every state individually. What goes on in Utah isn't what goes on in West Virginia or Mississippi.

Alot of people are forgotten, from Mississippi to Kentucky.

As for race, I only mentioned race from the perspective that I knew people were going to blame Blacks for Mississippi's problem (or rather the South's problems). New York has alot of Blacks. New York is among the top 10 for life expectancy. Blacks in New York, as well as Whites, have a higher than average life expectancy.
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