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Making it illegal or legal does not make it any less wrong.
If abortion were illegal, would you suddenly be against it? Because well, it's illegal.
I'd prefer all the proabortioners start working on the reasons women get abortions and try to eliminate them. I know that won't happen because abortion, abortion, abortion. They really don't care about improving the lives of women. Getting them to have self respect, common sense and respect. They sure do want to kill all the babies, though.
You know, dear, it is about time to remind you that US citizens who care about civil rights and women’s equality and autonomy and those who respect the rule of law are pro-choice. Perhaps it is time to ask you to explain why anti-choicers such as yourself and anti-choice politicians and organizations focus on undermining and chipping away at the civil rights and the very life and privacy of women and their bodies and their medical care. No one is demanding that you anti-civil righters, and you anti-women equality zealots do anything to your body against your will or are crafting legislation that will tramp on or deny access to your quality of life that you legally have a right to seek.
Newtovenice, I think it is disgraceful that you anti-choicers' mission is to threaten the fundamental equality of all women. A woman can never be equal if she is denied the basic right to make decisions for herself and her family.
So please spare us the sanctimonious nonsense. If you really cared about reasons you wouldn't be anti-choice.
P.S. A shout out to zzzSnorflax for utilizing the word sanctimonious previously...thanks for the vocab refresh.
Last edited by corpgypsy; 05-16-2019 at 12:44 PM..
Good Lord. No, the poster does not apparently feel you caused a 20 year illness with father. Seriously, newtovenice, tell me something. Why are you so incredibly WRONG and so FOOLISH as to see it that way?
I suppose if you are inclined to play the martyr card that is how one sees things.
I actually get the christian pro lifers than those who claim to be non religious. If you really believe that abortion is some sin to god then I get the crusade against that. But if you just personally are against it then fine be against it. Don't bother other people.
I suppose if you are inclined to play the martyr card that is how one sees things.
I actually get the christian pro lifers than those who claim to be non religious. If you really believe that abortion is some sin to god then I get the crusade against that. But if you just personally are against it then fine be against it. Don't bother other people.
Kind of like:
If you are against child abuse, just don't do. But it's OK for others to beat the everloving crap out of their own kids?
Against rape? Don't do it but it's perfectly OK if someone else does.
Against slavery? Don't own them. But perfectly OK if other people do, right?
And legality? Has zero to do with right behavior.
If rape were legal, would you agree its a good thing to do and that rapists should have the choice to rape people? Because something is OK if it's legal, right?
The only ones on this board screeching about religion are the proabortioners. Make of that what you will.
I see you haven't bothered to actually research secular prolife groups. Shocker.
Maybe check out some of the feminist prolife groups too.
I really see no use in doing anything but taking newtovenice at face value. I mean, some have questioned her gender in the past based on some of her positions, but what's the point of that, really? I think it just is easier and makes more sense to assume people are being truthful about themselves and what they're about.
We don't agree on this, and we've been on opposing sides of issues before (though I cannot recall exactly what, I do recall that we have disagreed.) But her position makes sense to me here nonetheless. I don't agree but I see where she is coming from.
It all comes down to the sincere personal belief that a person is a person with the right to live from the moment of conception, not a later point. Both her stance, and my disagreement with it, go right to that particular starting point, and it all flows from there. I mean, I'm very much of the opinion in general of "do what you want if it doesn't harm someone else." I don't see an embryo as a "someone." She does.
So I rate the needs and rights, even unto the extent of life itself, as lesser for the not-yet-sentient embryo...as compared to the fully engaged-in-living-life woman or girl. In particular in the early stages, where I feel that nature is already apt to end pregnancies spontaneously, since 25% of conceptions end in miscarriage anyhow, usually early on.
I've also experienced losses, deaths among people close to me. I can tell you, one loss is not the same as another. When my most dear relative, my Great Aunt, passed...I felt joy and relief. She was in her 80's and she had dementia. She just was not there anymore. When my Grandmother died of cancer she had battled for years and years with countless surgeries, radiation, and chemo, and endured all the pain of it to the day the doctors simply told her she would not survive treatment any more, she was too old and frail...again, we saw it coming and the end to her suffering was very nearly relief. But when a 50 year old friend of mine unexpectedly kicked it of a drug overdose (and we didn't know he was using, it was nearly a suicide, and it was a horrible shock)... I walked around feeling like someone had punched me in the stomach for three months.
So I just don't really feel like a human life is a human life and all are sacred and must be preserved and made to continue at all costs, the end. We all will die. Someday, or five minutes from now. Not one of us is guaranteed a single moment more of life. It was never a guarantee that any of us would be conceived or born. Quality is more meaningful to me, than quantity. All of that is where I come from in my positions on this. To destroy a woman's quality of life, to bring a baby into the world whose quality of life would also likely be questionable at best, just to guard the quantity, the time given for a human to exist...it does not compute for me.
Kind of like:
If you are against child abuse, just don't do. But it's OK for others to beat the everloving crap out of their own kids?
Against rape? Don't do it but it's perfectly OK if someone else does.
Against slavery? Don't own them. But perfectly OK if other people do, right?
And legality? Has zero to do with right behavior.
If rape were legal, would you agree its a good thing to do and that rapists should have the choice to rape people? Because something is OK if it's legal, right?
The only ones on this board screeching about religion are the proabortioners. Make of that what you will.
I see you haven't bothered to actually research secular prolife groups. Shocker.
Maybe check out some of the feminist prolife groups too.
Oh, wait. You only argue religion. Right.
Are you seriously comparing aborting zygotes/fetuses to abusing/enslaving/raping actual living, breathing, sentient people?? That's insane!!
Kind of like:
If you are against child abuse, just don't do. But it's OK for others to beat the everloving crap out of their own kids?
Against rape? Don't do it but it's perfectly OK if someone else does.
Against slavery? Don't own them. But perfectly OK if other people do, right?
And legality? Has zero to do with right behavior.
If rape were legal, would you agree its a good thing to do and that rapists should have the choice to rape people? Because something is OK if it's legal, right?
The only ones on this board screeching about religion are the proabortioners. Make of that what you will.
I see you haven't bothered to actually research secular prolife groups. Shocker.
Maybe check out some of the feminist prolife groups too.
Oh, wait. You only argue religion. Right.
Unlike rape and child abuse, abortion is not universally accepted as a crime. So it is your opinion that it is and therefore do not have anything to do with it. Leave others alone.
Unlike rape and child abuse, abortion is not universally accepted as a crime. So it is your opinion that it is and therefore do not have anything to do with it. Leave others alone.
Very simple.
Right.
You believe that a behavior is a RIGHT behavior if it is LEGAL.
So ... rape is *suddenly* legal. Do you automatically cheer for rape and respect others right to do it? Or do you -- make a decision that is based on the behavior -- and decide, well, I thought rape was bad before it was legal, so I still think it's bad.
OR: Does legality make behavior desirous?
On which case, you literally have no other opinion than legal = good, illegal = bad.
You believe that a behavior is a RIGHT behavior if it is LEGAL.
So ... rape is *suddenly* legal. Do you automatically cheer for rape and respect others right to do it? Or do you -- make a decision that is based on the behavior -- and decide, well, I thought rape was bad before it was legal, so I still think it's bad.
OR: Does legality make behavior desirous?
On which case, you literally have no other opinion than legal = good, illegal = bad.
I believe early stage abortion is simply a medical procedure. When it can survive outside the womb it should not be allowed.
It all comes down to the sincere personal belief that a person is a person with the right to live from the moment of conception, not a later point. Both her stance, and my disagreement with it, go right to that particular starting point, and it all flows from there. I mean, I'm very much of the opinion in general of "do what you want if it doesn't harm someone else." I don't see an embryo as a "someone." She does.
I guess it makes sense but it is messed up because she believes that a person should be forced into existence only to suffer (because I have yet to see people like her advocating for improvements to the lives of those who are struggling and even if she didn't the very fact that she's against the choice of termination says it all)
Still waiting on newtovenice to cite where they found the statistic that 20% of pregnancies end in abortion.
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