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Old 05-15-2019, 06:34 PM
 
5,634 posts, read 2,271,035 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Freedom isn’t free, sorry for the breaking news. You’d be speaking Russian or German if it wasn’t for this thing called “war.”

We tried isolationism before and our reward was Pearl Harbor
Wrong. America was not practicing isolation with Japan, nor was Japan for that matter.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:40 PM
 
2,699 posts, read 984,510 times
Reputation: 1733
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
Although not perfect it did delay their nuclear program for a decade with a better economy they might have changed their minds over time. Putting that deal together involved 5 countries and took years to get agreement, its easy to tear up deals but international agreements are hard work as we have seen. Do you think Iran is ever going to agree with anything we come up with after we backed out. The perfect agreement doesn't exist and it would require diplomacy which is in short supply in this administration.
Unlikely, since any potential agreement that could be reached in the future can just as easily be torn to shreds by a different administration.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:42 PM
 
Location: the Sticks
8,314 posts, read 2,407,400 times
Reputation: 4335
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocko20 View Post
Freedom isn’t free, sorry for the breaking news. You’d be speaking Russian or German if it wasn’t for this thing called “war.”

We tried isolationism before and our reward was Pearl Harbor
Revisionist history?

No what we did was embargo and ban trade with Japan in response to their aggressions. This is what resulted in Pearl Harbor. Isolationism would have been completely ignoring Japan and their many many misdeeds.

Germany. We didn't isolate there either. We were supplying war supplies to our allies. That isn't isolationism. On top of that we were trading with many countries.

Abstaining from joining a war is not isolationism. Not playing sugar daddy to countries like Israel, Egypt and others is not Isolationism.

Iran is pretty much distrusted if not disposed by most of their neighbors and for good reason. The Iranian government is an absolute sponsor of terrorism in the region. They are that bad neighbor the others whisper about and wish would move away. That doesn't mean that it is our job to do something about it. Call the UN. It's their job.
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Old 05-15-2019, 06:55 PM
 
2,699 posts, read 984,510 times
Reputation: 1733
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryanst530 View Post
The JCPOA was FAR from perfect. Iran was milking it and arguably using it against us.

Here is an interesting op-ed perspective on the JCPOA:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/09/opini...ren/index.html

Many good points throughout the article, none of which you ever see the media question or point out, likely because doing so would lend credibility to Trump's decision. And yes, the author is Israeli, but the points he makes are valid and completely verifiable.
As someone who is entirely on the side of Israel, even I see that as a bad move. Yes, Iran is responsible for funding Hezbollah with rockets which are then used to attack Israel. However, the recent sanctions and threats made by Bolton are only further alienating the regime from ever being brought to the table again.

How exactly would you proceed?
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:10 PM
 
9,562 posts, read 4,490,926 times
Reputation: 12293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
I honestly don't understand Mircea's take on how he expects this war to end within 30-60 days. Iraq was sold to the public as a quick affair, yet it ended up raging for years.

The combat phase was about a month. The occupation and "peacekeeping" phase is where we run into issues, where rules of engagement basically requires our soldiers to get shot at before shooting back. Our soldiers are very good at being soldiers, not so good at being police officers. In the combat phase we take very few casualties.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:13 PM
 
9,562 posts, read 4,490,926 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TreeBeard View Post
If someone actually believes that any war with Iran will end in 30-60 days is seriously delusional. A war with Iran will make Iraq look like a day in the park. Of course anyone who believes Iraq was a victory is ready for the funny farm.

Iraq had a bigger and better army. The Iranian army would be defeated within 60 days. Then the question is whether we pull back or try to occupy. Occupation would be a decade or two affair.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:19 PM
 
Location: Central Illinois -
21,360 posts, read 14,264,551 times
Reputation: 14488
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia View Post
Iraq had a bigger and better army. The Iranian army would be defeated within 60 days. Then the question is whether we pull back or try to occupy. Occupation would be a decade or two affair.
Iran has a proxy in Iraq. We created that. Any aggression against Iran will undoubtedly bleed into Iraq, where we will be fighting again. Ask the Israelis if Hezbollah is a worthy opponent. They learned the hard way. So will we, but it won't matter to those who are sending kids to fight and die in the middle of a desert.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:25 PM
 
Location: Central Illinois -
21,360 posts, read 14,264,551 times
Reputation: 14488
Quote:
Originally Posted by r small View Post
Back in 2018 I saw Bolton interviewed by Tucker Carlson of Fox (I think we can both agree that Carlson is not an anti-Trump leftist) and Carlson told Bolton point blank that the Iraq invasion was "a disaster" and asked him why he thought it was a "resounding success". Bolton trotted out the old discredited "WMDs" and "nuclear program" pretexts for the invasion and a lot of neo-con claptrap. It was a pretty weak performance. Carlson, in my opinion, destroyed Bolton and exposed him as a total nut job.
That is so troubling, on so many levels. Just like Bush, who was utterly clueless and did as he was told, we have someone even more clueless in Trump, who has gotten rid of anyone who could give him sound advice (Gen. Kelley, Gen. McMaster, etc., etc.)

I almost expect Donald Rumsfeld to be standing alongside Bolton at a future press conference.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:36 PM
 
19,776 posts, read 11,029,322 times
Reputation: 19798
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrat335 View Post
And anybody who's studied war knows one very important thing about plans. They never survive the first moment of contact with the enemy.

16 years ago I called BS on the invasion of Iraq. I said it would be the biggest tarbaby we ever walked into. I was right.
Was that you? I thought it was me. I'm sure it was me.

Quote:
I'm calling it now, once again. If we go after Iran, it will be the biggest redneck "watch this" moment of my life. We may never recover. As a matter of fact I think it will destroy us as a world power. Iran is not alone.
And nobody is following the US in on this one. The UK isn't going to be there, nor is Australia.
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Old 05-15-2019, 07:37 PM
 
6,420 posts, read 2,733,516 times
Reputation: 7752
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceangaia View Post
Iraq had a bigger and better army. The Iranian army would be defeated within 60 days. Then the question is whether we pull back or try to occupy. Occupation would be a decade or two affair.
You are all wrong. Iran is stronger than Iraq ever was. Iraq was a Potemkin state because of sanctions by the time W invaded. Don't delude yourself.
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