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Old 05-19-2019, 04:10 PM
 
1,679 posts, read 575,936 times
Reputation: 1291

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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Remember that Perot got my vote - and Nate S shows clearly that he received 50.50 in terms of right/left votes. So Perot really has no effect on the election.

The last sentence is more nuanced. It's the basic failure of Republicans to put together cause and effect.

One thing we can all agree on is that Republicans prefer inequality - that is, they want "someone else" to pick their crops, build their houses, wash their dishes and do their landscaping. Therefore, they invite (in theory) vast low cost labor forces in to do the "dirty work" in places like Texas and Florida and Nevada and Colorado (as you mention). Most cannot currently become citizens, but Reagan gave amnesty to millions which I am certain added voters to the rolls in these places.

In a sense it's no different than many Southern States that are now inviting civilization in - education, corporations, development, industry, etc.

When you invite the doers in...to do stuff...they are then part of the demographic eventually.

The only hope for any true long term conservative states is low population and lack of cultural and civic improvement. WY or ID could, for example, stay that way....and tiny oil boom states such as ND also.

But that's not gonna be a winning game in the long run.

They still have the option of continuing to ruin the country and causing chaos and hardship...which has always driven people into the hands of authoritarianism and other such movements. That is really their last hope and they are doing a decent job of it right now.
There is now another path capital can take which avoids the downfalls of the cheap labor strategy you laid out.

Don't hire anyone.

Automate all the work. Robots and computers will never get the vote.

Ironically this strategy is getting its test run in the ultra-liberal Silicon Valley/SF Bay area. The greatest adversity breeds the greatest adaptation.
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Old 05-19-2019, 04:18 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
13,519 posts, read 5,456,582 times
Reputation: 5286
Quote:
Originally Posted by elvis44102 View Post
if one includes the globalist business interests along with all other business interests which are traditionally what the right has been...then you mostly have all the money in the world to influence peoples minds through every piece of media in ALL its forms to redirect their anger towards whomever you declare is the responsible "bogey-man" it is no mystery..you cherry-pick hot-button emotionally charged issues such as abortion and immigrants (an old stand-by) and just blabber on about "those" people lol
That’s pretty much it, yes.

The Republicans work for corporate interests while pandering to angry white men for votes.

The Democrats work for corporate interests while pandering to women and minorities for votes.

There’s no point in voting; it only legitimizes the current system.
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Old 05-19-2019, 04:56 PM
 
Location: The middle of nowhere
8,754 posts, read 4,025,691 times
Reputation: 7483
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
That’s pretty much it, yes.

The Republicans work for corporate interests while pandering to angry white men for votes.

The Democrats work for corporate interests while pandering to women and minorities for votes.

There’s no point in voting; it only legitimizes the current system.
But if you value secular government you have to vote Democrat. Republicans believe the founding fathers were wrong when they set up separation of church and state and that fundamentalist Christianity is and always will be a part of American identity.
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Old 05-19-2019, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,035 posts, read 533,773 times
Reputation: 931
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawac34618 View Post
But if you value secular government you have to vote Democrat. Republicans believe the founding fathers were wrong when they set up separation of church and state and that fundamentalist Christianity is and always will be a part of American identity.
Cite a quote in which an elected GOP person who believes that. I don't believe you can.

Many Republicans/conservatives these days are Jewish. We have a local talk station that runs Rush Limbaugh in the mornings. The afternoon/evening talk hosts are 100% Jewish (Medved, Jason Rantz, Ben Shapiro, and Mark Levin). Even the late night guy is Catholic, not fundamentalist.

I'm quite sure none of them would be in favor of scrapping freedom of religion.
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Old 05-19-2019, 06:38 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
13,519 posts, read 5,456,582 times
Reputation: 5286
Quote:
Originally Posted by bawac34618 View Post
But if you value secular government you have to vote Democrat. Republicans believe the founding fathers were wrong when they set up separation of church and state and that fundamentalist Christianity is and always will be a part of American identity.
Fundamentalist Christianity isn’t so good for corporate America (anymore), because corporate America needs a highly educated workforce to exploit. So I wouldn’t expect a theocracy anytime soon. Plenty of corporate people have spoken out against the Christian Right, especially with regard to the gay marriage stuff.

America will continue to be a plutocracy, as it has been since 1776. The plutocrats aren’t going to let a few fundamentalist Christian preachers seize the reigns of power.
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Old 05-19-2019, 07:08 PM
 
14,588 posts, read 3,867,544 times
Reputation: 10640
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
There is now another path capital can take which avoids the downfalls of the cheap labor strategy you laid out.

Don't hire anyone.
Automate all the work. Robots and computers will never get the vote.

Ironically this strategy is getting its test run in the ultra-liberal Silicon Valley/SF Bay area. The greatest adversity breeds the greatest adaptation.
Let's not pretend this is anything new. This has ALWAYS been the case - it's the story of the industrial revolution as well as the story of standing armies (excess production of food and goods allowed for them)....etc.

This is happening no matter what and is not a strategy of a political class. Robots spot weld better than humans. Robots do a LOT of things better than humans...and they will do them, as they should.

If you've ever watched a bagging line and seen those robots perfectly load 40 or 50 bags of stuff (wood pellets, etc.) onto a pallet a shrink wrap it you'd think "Wow, now that is a job that no sane human being would want to do all day long".

Anything that you and can think of is already being pursued - it STILL will take a lot of humans to feed us and for our recreation....

Take two industries - which probably employ vast numbers.....

1. Hospitality - it will be a long time before Robots clean your hotel room and do the sheets...and wash the dished and do the short-order in the eatery.

2. Construction - how long will be be until a robot can go on my roof, tear off the layers of shingles and then lay the new roof on?

There are many more such examples. In robotics, as in everything else, the efforts will be toward the most productive and efficient improvements. Hotel Room cleaning is just not going to make the grade as the ability of robots to properly scrub the inside of a toilet bowl or to remove a smudge of jelly from the side of the dresser will be many many decades in the future.

Steve Jobs opened a Mac factory in Fremont in 1984 and claimed Macs would make other macs. It was a complete failure. Tesla is starting with a blank slate and, no doubt, has some nice automation -however, they still need untold thousands of workers. Just the logistics of getting the finished car to the customer takes a lot of human beings!

I was just looking at the local GM plant history (long closed). It was a massive plant and employed 3700 workers. The car plants today employ somewhere in the same range. So the revolution may be more in quality and parts count and complexity than in the less need for workers.

It's hard to project how automation will change the left-right dynamics in the USA. Personally I think they will have little effect.

The POTUS candidate, Yang, thinks otherwise. He claims that unless we do something with those 3 million truck drivers who will be out of a job in a decade or two, we are in for trouble. I see his point but can't project out that far.
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Old 05-19-2019, 07:30 PM
 
14,588 posts, read 3,867,544 times
Reputation: 10640
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
Cite a quote in which an elected GOP person who believes that. I don't believe you can.

I'm quite sure none of them would be in favor of scrapping freedom of religion.
Travis! You are very wrong. I hope I can prove it to you.

First, let me mention a couple names...

John Ensign - US Senator from NV.
Mark Sanford - Rep and former Gov. SC
Sam Brownback
Chuck Grassley
Jim DeMint
Tom Coburn
Jim Inhofe
Mike Enzi

I think we can agree that this represents a cross-section of "elected GOP Officials". There are many more i an list, but that's a good sample.

They, and 100's of other (mostly GOP but some Blue Dog Fundies) are members of a Christian organization. Many of them even live (and pray) together in the same houses in DC (a good financial deal can be had also).

https://www.npr.org/templates/story/...ryId=120746516

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fe...n_organization)

In addition to American power, this organization also includes MANY powerful Christians the world over, some known as despots or other fountains of corruption and authoritarianism.

"During the 1960s, the Family forged relationships between the U.S. government and some of the most oppressive regimes in the world, arranging prayer networks in the U.S. Congress for the likes of General Costa e Silva, dictator of Brazil; General Suharto, dictator of Indonesia; and General Park Chung Hee, dictator of South Korea. "The Fellowship's reach into governments around the world," observes David Kuo, a former special assistant to the president in Bush's first term, "is almost impossible to overstate or even grasp."

The stated goal of The Family is to install Jesus Christ - personally - at the head of government of the world. They are anti-Democracy and they will tell you so...not in campaign commercials, of course, but these are the people behind things like the AL abortion law. They don't care about law or the people. It's Jesus only.

"the Family declared that democracy is inadequate to the fight against godlessness"

This is the group that started and runs the "National Prayer Breakfast" FYI.

"Coe himself boasted of what the press couldn’t see, declaring that the single public event, the Prayer Breakfast, “is only one-tenth of one percent of the iceberg ... [and] doesn’t give the true picture of what is going on.”

" “God appoints specific leaders to fulfill a mission; He doesn’t hold a popular vote,” writes John C. Maxwell, a management guru on C Street’s Prayer Breakfast circuit, in a Bible study titled Leadership: Deliberate Selection vs. Democratic Election."

Long story short, not only do one or two or ten GOP leader support doing away with Democracy, but virtually the entire power base...and they want to do this all over the world. AND, they have appointed themselves to do so...

You should read up on it because it is no sideline of no joke. These people are vastly more dangerous than foreign terrorists as they actually change our laws and bribe our officials and other depots all over the world.

The end game is installing THEM in total power...and THEY, in turn, know what Jesus would do and that will become the law. It is already so in some laws.
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Old 05-19-2019, 07:46 PM
 
1,679 posts, read 575,936 times
Reputation: 1291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Fundamentalist Christianity isn’t so good for corporate America (anymore), because corporate America needs a highly educated workforce to exploit. So I wouldn’t expect a theocracy anytime soon. Plenty of corporate people have spoken out against the Christian Right, especially with regard to the gay marriage stuff.

America will continue to be a plutocracy, as it has been since 1776. The plutocrats aren’t going to let a few fundamentalist Christian preachers seize the reigns of power.
Indeed, the new business strategy is to mouth liberal culture war rhetoric to placate the left with sweet nothings, and forestall actual policy that might lead to redistribution.
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:01 PM
 
1,679 posts, read 575,936 times
Reputation: 1291
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Let's not pretend this is anything new. This has ALWAYS been the case - it's the story of the industrial revolution as well as the story of standing armies (excess production of food and goods allowed for them)....etc.

This is happening no matter what and is not a strategy of a political class. Robots spot weld better than humans. Robots do a LOT of things better than humans...and they will do them, as they should.

If you've ever watched a bagging line and seen those robots perfectly load 40 or 50 bags of stuff (wood pellets, etc.) onto a pallet a shrink wrap it you'd think "Wow, now that is a job that no sane human being would want to do all day long".

Anything that you and can think of is already being pursued - it STILL will take a lot of humans to feed us and for our recreation....

Take two industries - which probably employ vast numbers.....

1. Hospitality - it will be a long time before Robots clean your hotel room and do the sheets...and wash the dished and do the short-order in the eatery.

2. Construction - how long will be be until a robot can go on my roof, tear off the layers of shingles and then lay the new roof on?

There are many more such examples. In robotics, as in everything else, the efforts will be toward the most productive and efficient improvements. Hotel Room cleaning is just not going to make the grade as the ability of robots to properly scrub the inside of a toilet bowl or to remove a smudge of jelly from the side of the dresser will be many many decades in the future.

Steve Jobs opened a Mac factory in Fremont in 1984 and claimed Macs would make other macs. It was a complete failure. Tesla is starting with a blank slate and, no doubt, has some nice automation -however, they still need untold thousands of workers. Just the logistics of getting the finished car to the customer takes a lot of human beings!

I was just looking at the local GM plant history (long closed). It was a massive plant and employed 3700 workers. The car plants today employ somewhere in the same range. So the revolution may be more in quality and parts count and complexity than in the less need for workers.

It's hard to project how automation will change the left-right dynamics in the USA. Personally I think they will have little effect.

The POTUS candidate, Yang, thinks otherwise. He claims that unless we do something with those 3 million truck drivers who will be out of a job in a decade or two, we are in for trouble. I see his point but can't project out that far.
Considering the sweep of recorded history, the industrial revolution is still new. We are still seeing it unfold.

The bifurcation in the economy between the professional class and the precariat is between one group of people who are employed because their skills are needed (educated professionals) and the other group is employed because they are still cheaper than robots (precariat). Humans are very versatile, but specialized robots will eventually occupy most if not all economic niches. This is simply an extreme form of specialization.

I think it's notable that developed countries are now starting to experience population declines. That suggests we have already reached the point of diminishing returns on human capital.

I agree left right dynamics will be hard to predict in the next century because there are already so many people and we as organisms have a powerful survival instinct. However in the long run people without an economic niche will disappear. If all that's standing between you and the great beyond is a monthly UBI check, subject to the vagaries of politics, you are in a tenuous position.
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Old 05-19-2019, 08:17 PM
 
18,639 posts, read 7,247,279 times
Reputation: 7971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post

The bifurcation in the economy between the professional class and the precariat is between one group of people who are employed because their skills are needed (educated professionals) and the other group is employed because they are still cheaper than robots (precariat).
The latter are no longer cheaper in many states, which will expedite the elimination of their jobs via automation.
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