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Old 07-12-2019, 11:45 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SFit View Post
No. But the evidence for racial motivation for farm murders is not solid, as police do not record race in their statistics.


Actually, a high murder weekend in Chicago means around 10-12 people were murdered. The total number of murders last year was 561, which was 100 less than 2017, so yes, people are working on that here and it does get covered by the MSM regularly.


I see stories about Chicago violence regularly from MSM sources and black advocates talking about what to do. Not only are they talking about it, but since murder rates in Chicago have gone down 2 years straight, it appears to be working.
Just type "Chicago violence" in to google and you will see plenty of the MSM covering a particularly violent weekend in June this year when 52 were shot and 10 died. Its being covered by CNN, ABC, NBC, USA Today, etc.
Well your first point is either poorly informed, or intentionally being obtuse. Statistics were kept, and then as a government policy, stopped.
WHY?
That alone should be a fair indicator of ambivalence at best, outright tacit approval at worst. The last thing they want is what is starting to happen now, with worldwide attention focused on the problem, and having actual stats to back it up.

I disagree that the MSM covers most black on black murders anywhere near when suspected racial motivation is involved with a white person killing a black person.

We need look no further than the Martin/Zimmerman fiasco.
From the very start the media created a false narrative by juxtaposing the picture of Zimmerman as a menacing "white" thug (from a former mug shot), and picturing Martin as an angelic black boy(from years before).
I myself (who does not typically jump to conclusions), initially fell for it thinking there could be no legitimate reason some big adult guy (like Zimmerman) should need to shoot a young boy.
[Race didn't factor in my thinking at all, though I could tell from the picture of Zimmerman, he didn't look very white]
But as time went by, it became obvious that the framing of the story was done purposely.

You seem to want to ignore that in SA it is not so much the number of white farmers being targeted/killed, but rather the government approval of the theft of their land, and indifference as to what harm will befall them if they refuse to leave.
In our country, if land is being seized say because of failure to pay taxes, legal judgment, etc., the armed agents of the state (typically police being involved) safely remove the person whether they want to leave or not.
In SA, whether you want to call it rhetoric or not, talk by politicians of harming whites if they do not leave gives tacit approval to almost anyone wanting to engage in racially motivated violence.

Or did not you not watch the documentary and other articles/links/videos posted throughout this thread?


`
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Old 07-12-2019, 07:57 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
8,795 posts, read 4,457,698 times
Reputation: 1410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1 View Post
Well your first point is either poorly informed, or intentionally being obtuse. Statistics were kept, and then as a government policy, stopped.
WHY?
That alone should be a fair indicator of ambivalence at best, outright tacit approval at worst. The last thing they want is what is starting to happen now, with worldwide attention focused on the problem, and having actual stats to back it up.

I disagree that the MSM covers most black on black murders anywhere near when suspected racial motivation is involved with a white person killing a black person.

We need look no further than the Martin/Zimmerman fiasco.
From the very start the media created a false narrative by juxtaposing the picture of Zimmerman as a menacing "white" thug (from a former mug shot), and picturing Martin as an angelic black boy(from years before).
I myself (who does not typically jump to conclusions), initially fell for it thinking there could be no legitimate reason some big adult guy (like Zimmerman) should need to shoot a young boy.
[Race didn't factor in my thinking at all, though I could tell from the picture of Zimmerman, he didn't look very white]
But as time went by, it became obvious that the framing of the story was done purposely.

You seem to want to ignore that in SA it is not so much the number of white farmers being targeted/killed, but rather the government approval of the theft of their land, and indifference as to what harm will befall them if they refuse to leave.
In our country, if land is being seized say because of failure to pay taxes, legal judgment, etc., the armed agents of the state (typically police being involved) safely remove the person whether they want to leave or not.
In SA, whether you want to call it rhetoric or not, talk by politicians of harming whites if they do not leave gives tacit approval to almost anyone wanting to engage in racially motivated violence.

Or did not you not watch the documentary and other articles/links/videos posted throughout this thread?


`
To be fair it depends on the one presenting the article, report or documentary on what one will take away from the facts and/or information, as the writers or producers state the case. We all come into discussions like this with information we have and we share that information ... Kind of like building a Tower of Babble.

When I pulled this thread up and began to read the first thing that popped up in my head was the people living in South Africa, as proven throughout the events of its history are not prejudice. They don't care who they kill or how badly they torture them in the process. For pete's sake the slave trade continues to be an on going business even today, as they proceed to kidnap people for sale on the illegal market trade. For the most part I don't think this is news to anyone, yet, it could be to some.

The other thing in proving the OPs remarks on white genocide in SA I find that depends on how one looks at it. imo a person would need to look at the crime stats for both urban and rural, do a break down among all the races living within the country; then last but not least, know for a fact the perpetrator's intent. The latest would be the hardest to prove, from a distance. We can speculate though and speculation seems to be a thriving sport that even our governments can not resist from participation.

The SA government/police officials make the claim that the murder and crime committed in the rural areas is 'normal'. For most people the word 'normal' means its relevant ... relevant encompasses a lot. Like you Victor I think that for the SAP to cease to report and make known the statistics so all can have a better understanding speaks to the ambiguity; purposefully or not it is what it is.

One thing is for certain though, when the citizens of South Africa believe they are getting the run around from their government and their interests are not being protected ... all hell is going to break loose with anyone and everyone a possible victim, as scorched earth proceeds with a vengeance. Again, for the most part I don't think this is news to anyone, yet, it could be to some.
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Old 07-13-2019, 02:56 PM
 
9,389 posts, read 4,305,776 times
Reputation: 11060
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
To be fair it depends on the one presenting the article, report or documentary on what one will take away from the facts and/or information, as the writers or producers state the case. We all come into discussions like this with information we have and we share that information ... Kind of like building a Tower of Babble.

When I pulled this thread up and began to read the first thing that popped up in my head was the people living in South Africa, as proven throughout the events of its history are not prejudice. They don't care who they kill or how badly they torture them in the process. For pete's sake the slave trade continues to be an on going business even today, as they proceed to kidnap people for sale on the illegal market trade. For the most part I don't think this is news to anyone, yet, it could be to some.

The other thing in proving the OPs remarks on white genocide in SA I find that depends on how one looks at it. imo a person would need to look at the crime stats for both urban and rural, do a break down among all the races living within the country; then last but not least, know for a fact the perpetrator's intent. The latest would be the hardest to prove, from a distance. We can speculate though and speculation seems to be a thriving sport that even our governments can not resist from participation.

The SA government/police officials make the claim that the murder and crime committed in the rural areas is 'normal'. For most people the word 'normal' means its relevant ... relevant encompasses a lot. Like you Victor I think that for the SAP to cease to report and make known the statistics so all can have a better understanding speaks to the ambiguity; purposefully or not it is what it is.

One thing is for certain though, when the citizens of South Africa believe they are getting the run around from their government and their interests are not being protected ... all hell is going to break loose with anyone and everyone a possible victim, as scorched earth proceeds with a vengeance. Again, for the most part I don't think this is news to anyone, yet, it could be to some.
Actually it is news to many compared with when we and other countries shined a bright light on what the white Afrikaner government was doing regarding discrimination against the black majority.
Very few major news outlets are covering it today, though the NYT's did cover that one farmer (they had previously interviewed)recently killed.


`
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Old 07-13-2019, 11:23 PM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
8,795 posts, read 4,457,698 times
Reputation: 1410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1 View Post
Actually it is news to many compared with when we and other countries shined a bright light on what the white Afrikaner government was doing regarding discrimination against the black majority.
Very few major news outlets are covering it today, though the NYT's did cover that one farmer (they had previously interviewed)recently killed.


`
That all may be as, idk what the news in this country covered of the event goings on in the SA government over the last 50 years. I'll be honest, it's recent news to me that there are white people living in SA ... Many moons ago when I watched the documentary on the necklacing, it was one of those late night channeling the t.v. with remote and a pause, this looks interesting, type of deal. I watched right up to the point where they put a man in a ring of tires, set him on fire, pushed him over and he rolled down a hill all ablaze. I was like holy Sh ... if I were a black American I wouldn't even want visit a place like that, much less move there. I channeled off the program with that image stuck in my head and it can not be erased. On that note, I do not recall seeing one white person in that particluar documentary. So there was my take away as a person who had a life outside of local and world events.

Since my days of Internet, which began many moons ago and I can not believe my age in relation to and the joining of c-d, in which I have learned so much ... [end side note]

When I wrote in that post above about they would set a town on fire, it was because of something I had read in relation to the urban crime ... here is but one example of disgruntled people.

Black lives don’t matter in xenophobic South Africa

"This is not the first time that foreigners have faced attacks in South Africa’s townships and provinces. In 2008, the country’s streets were ablaze, literally, with violence against foreigners. Ernesto Alfabeto Nhamuave, a national from Mozambique, was beaten, stabbed and set on fire in broad daylight.
<snip>
Sixty-two people, including South Africans, were killed at that time and more than 100,000 were displaced. Last year, more than 20 shops were looted in one area alone, and foreign nationals had to flee their homes.
<snip>
The xenophobic violence tends to have a racial element. Nigerians, Somalis, Malawians, Pakistanis and Zimbabweans are often the targets of this prejudice.
<snip>
White migrants are safe."


That was reported in 2017 and under the same google search was a similar written in 2015 and the history is long. Not just on xenophobic either, if the citizens are upset in the least, katy bar the door, because nothing and no one is safe in the stampede that follows.

In conjunction with this thread and what is reported in one of SA media outlets in regards to land and government intervention and legislation ...

'White commercial farmers are here to stay' - David Mabuza

"He added that "comprehensive support" would be provided to emerging farmers."Commercial farmers have made themselves available to support emerging farmers.""


The wealth of information from that page I've linked to, is from the videos you'll find at the bottom of the page. There was something mentioned about an article 25. They also said, if a farmer had a huge farm, they were to share their land with someone else, less fortunate and teach them how to be a successful farmer. I watched, 'land can not belong to the people and the state at the same time.' I shut it off, but another began to play in the background, unintentionally, so it was a forced listen to, while I tried to figure out how to shut the darn thing off ... that took me a minute, which is good, because now I know more than what I did ...

More about the that ...

We need a social pact to secure the farming industry

"Mutually beneficial social pacts between farmers and employees will strengthen rural safety, security and peace. Such social pacts at the farm level will better protect farmers against political "farmers" – politically connected opportunists, gangsters and local strongmen – who have increasingly tried to hijack farms under the guise of "restitution", "redistribution" and "empowerment"."

Then there is an issue with farm employees ...

Farm workers and farm dwellers protest to demand rural reforms

They are demanding an end to farm evictions ... "“From poor infrastructure to poor service delivery and a failing land reform policy, the black poor majority living and working on farms are feeling the rot of this system,” she said."
Quote:
Very few major news outlets are covering it today
With good reason. As I pour over all this 'stuff' pointing and clicking reading one page to the next, I've come to but one conclusion ... 'the proof is in the pudding'. Some news outlets adhere to some form of integrity in relation to reporting events; if they can't check off all the boxes, they will hold the story until they can. If they report something that is half baked, a law suite is sure to follow. That doesn't mean the story isn't true, just means they can't tell it.

One question though I have had from the beginning and I have yet to be given an answer to --- who are the gangs?


[side note] I watched Economic forum today on SA, the farming industry is but one of the multitudes of issues they face, where as a taxi cab driver only receives $2.00 a fare and that is split and divided into so many portions they are lucky if they see a nickle of it.
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:36 AM
 
9,389 posts, read 4,305,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
With good reason. As I pour over all this 'stuff' pointing and clicking reading one page to the next, I've come to but one conclusion ... 'the proof is in the pudding'. Some news outlets adhere to some form of integrity in relation to reporting events; if they can't check off all the boxes, they will hold the story until they can. If they report something that is half baked, a law suite is sure to follow. That doesn't mean the story isn't true, just means they can't tell it.
You seem to have a lot more faith in the news than most people. I remember watching the news on the big 3 A-C-N BC along with CNN & Fox during the Fast & Furious scandal.
Even though there was plenty to report, all the stations minimized coverage except for Fox.

The irony of course is that the main investigative journalist who broke and was digging further into the story was CBS Sharyl Attkisson.
Though she was the darling of CBS during her years investigating Republicans during the Bush years, they marginalized her work on F&F barely reporting it, or relegating it to their internet site on the back pages. When she objected, they told her to move on to something else.
It is what led to her quitting because of the obvious bias and refusal to run coverage of negative things about Obama & Co like they had against Bush & Co.

It is all documented in her book, along with showing how the brother of CBS worked for Obama, and had significant influence over what CBS did and did not cover regarding the Obama years.

The point is that many in the press only care when minorities are in peril, but not whites. Many believe only whites can be racist, not minorities. So it comes as little surprise most MSM outlets are not covering what is happening today, vs. how the covered SA back when blacks were being discriminated against.


`
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Old 07-17-2019, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Federal Way, WA
670 posts, read 200,347 times
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Can you at least finally admit that the thread title is clearly wrong about genocide? Around .5% of murders in SA are farm murders, and not everyone murdered on farms are white, and it is sometimes racially motivated, sometimes its just done so the murderers can steal stuff.

I don't think there is no genocide in SA, I know there is no genocide there and anyone who is being honest knows that as well. You can be as upset as you want about racially motivated murders. But they are a drop in the bucket of the overall violence, which is still lower than it was under apartheid. Genocide is not happening in SA, period. That is what the thread is about.
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Old 07-17-2019, 08:56 PM
 
9,389 posts, read 4,305,776 times
Reputation: 11060
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFit View Post
Can you at least finally admit that the thread title is clearly wrong about genocide? Around .5% of murders in SA are farm murders, and not everyone murdered on farms are white, and it is sometimes racially motivated, sometimes its just done so the murderers can steal stuff.

I don't think there is no genocide in SA, I know there is no genocide there and anyone who is being honest knows that as well. You can be as upset as you want about racially motivated murders. But they are a drop in the bucket of the overall violence, which is still lower than it was under apartheid. Genocide is not happening in SA, period. That is what the thread is about.
Are you asking me?

If so, I already said genocide is presently not an accurate way to describe it. Some of the rhetoric coming from certain parties and their leaders imply that might be the future.

Regardless, I have also said lets not ignore the problem based on semantics either. Most of this discussion is relevant regardless of whether the OP used a term that is exaggerated.


`
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Old 07-19-2019, 02:40 AM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
8,795 posts, read 4,457,698 times
Reputation: 1410
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
With good reason. As I pour over all this 'stuff' pointing and clicking reading one page to the next, I've come to but one conclusion ... 'the proof is in the pudding'. Some news outlets adhere to some form of integrity in relation to reporting events; if they can't check off all the boxes, they will hold the story until they can. If they report something that is half baked, a law suite is sure to follow. That doesn't mean the story isn't true, just means they can't tell it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1 View Post
You seem to have a lot more faith in the news than most people. I remember watching the news on the big 3 A-C-N BC along with CNN & Fox during the Fast & Furious scandal.
Even though there was plenty to report, all the stations minimized coverage except for Fox.

The irony of course is that the main investigative journalist who broke and was digging further into the story was CBS Sharyl Attkisson.
Though she was the darling of CBS during her years investigating Republicans during the Bush years, they marginalized her work on F&F barely reporting it, or relegating it to their internet site on the back pages. When she objected, they told her to move on to something else.
It is what led to her quitting because of the obvious bias and refusal to run coverage of negative things about Obama & Co like they had against Bush & Co.

It is all documented in her book, along with showing how the brother of CBS worked for Obama, and had significant influence over what CBS did and did not cover regarding the Obama years.

The point is that many in the press only care when minorities are in peril, but not whites. Many believe only whites can be racist, not minorities. So it comes as little surprise most MSM outlets are not covering what is happening today, vs. how the covered SA back when blacks were being discriminated against.


`
I know what you're saying. Many years ago buried on one of the back pages of the Dallas Morning News was a story about a pallet of (missing) shrink wrapped money, sent to Iraq, by Bush. My brother found the story; sent it to me in an email. After I read it I sent him several email back in which I disclosed some information that I knew of at the time, (buried in college newspapers) in which he responded to me, 'people with big ideas have a tendency to disappear.' In other words, big brother's watching, knock it off sis.

Not to long ago, a cousin found a story (posted to FB) about a trucker's protest that was happening in Washington and apparently most of the roads were blocked by them. None of the major outlets were carrying the story, only the independents and a few back water sites ... It made me wonder if it was true ... See how that works?

So in all honesty, none of us, unless we get on some form of transportation and land ourselves right smack down in the middle of it, do we really know what it going on. Unless a person is there or knows someone who is ...

So far there is a denial that there are land grabs being done. Yet, you'll find those that will say it is. So idk ... on this news site, ( 'White commercial farmers are here to stay' - David Mabuza ) there are video snips at the bottom of the page, of their parliamentary hearings and at least from those, I gained a better understanding of the issues SA citizens face. The proposal I heard is the equivalent of what we've done here in the u.s. 'shared croppers'.

As far as race ... ? I got nothing. Racism is an (tool) invented concept ... and that is all I have to say about that.
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Old 07-19-2019, 02:45 AM
 
Location: Right here; Right now
8,795 posts, read 4,457,698 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vector1 View Post
Are you asking me?

If so, I already said genocide is presently not an accurate way to describe it. Some of the rhetoric coming from certain parties and their leaders imply that might be the future.

Regardless, I have also said lets not ignore the problem based on semantics either. Most of this discussion is relevant regardless of whether the OP used a term that is exaggerated.


`
Quote:
an accurate way to describe it
Civil War ... whether it is about race or rights, is up to the interpreter ...
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Old 07-19-2019, 02:54 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ellis Bell View Post
Civil War ... whether it is about race or rights, is up to the interpreter ...
True and to what level is unknown. I suspect the Afrikaner government could have put down any armed attempt to overthrow them, but it would have been a massacre of nightmare proportions. The world would have rightly condemned them if they were killing thousands up black people with rudimentary weapons against the army/police.

Today the armed forces are controlled by the black run government, and if there was an uprising by the whites, while better armed (an assumption on my part), they would likely not be a match against the current SA army.
Thus they would need to engaged in a guerrilla warfare, in much the same way other insurgents have done.

I suspect the liberal MSM would be more sympathetic toward the black run government, than had it happened the other way around.
But at that point, it might be fair to say a civil war was ensuing, and sadly many people on both sides would needlessly lose their lives.
That is why it is imperative that the world put pressure on SA to help prevent such a potential tragedy.


`
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