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Old 06-13-2019, 08:38 AM
 
15,494 posts, read 7,911,786 times
Reputation: 8025

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I'll note for people posting who are of recent African ancestry (our Nigerian and Ghanaian posters) it would be a great thing for you to do a DNA test if you are comfortable doing so. If both sets of your grandparents were born in Africa, you can actually get a test done for free from a couple of the major DNA testing companies.

Those of us from the African diaspora all over the world obtain a more comprehensive view of our familial connection with you and our association with accurate tribal/ethnic African affiliation when more people of recent African descent engage in testing.

 
Old 06-13-2019, 11:27 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 22 days ago)
 
48,296 posts, read 45,587,548 times
Reputation: 15370
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
I think you have too much rage like your name implies lol.

As desertdetroiter said, black people today, we revere our ancestors, especially those who were enslaved or endured intense terrorism and oppression at the hands of mainstream (white) American society.

On your grandparents and Ellis Island, most black people are not all that invested in you as an individual or your family's history. I've mentioned on this forum many times that I'm a genealogist and I actually find all people's history and cultures fascinating. I don't get offended or defensive when other people speak of their family's background, but you seem to be one of those white people that do. It is also a fact that your white immigrant grandparents actually had opportunities in the late 19th and 20th century that were closed to black people. I have very deep roots in America. My grandparents and great grandparents could not even be hired at specific factories just because they were black. Even though all those companies would hire Irish, Hungarian, Polish, English, German, Russian, and Italian immigrants. For other companies, black people were only allowed to work in janitorial positions with the excuse that higher paying jobs was needed for white men to "take care of their families." Your family came here for opportunities that my own and all the black posters families, no matter where they lived (north, south, east, or west) could not obtain to any wide degree. So all this "my ancestors never owned slaves" mess is kind of nonsensical to me as someone who intimately knows black American history and the history of this nation and its relationship to the ideology of white supremacy. Us knowing about the trials and tribulations of our ancestors is not an attack on you or your own. I'm sure your Ellis Island ancestors probably knew nothing of the discrimination faced by black Americans who had been Americans much longer than your family.

You should stop being so rage-y about things no one is saying about you in the blue. None of us care if you have your institutions or organizations or celebrate your immigrant ancestry. What the posters have been stating to you is that you shouldn't care about ours or us speaking of and revering our ancestors and being grateful for what many of us consider the "beautiful struggle" they endured and succeeded in creating the opportunities we currently enjoy as black Americans. I am beholden only to my ancestors. I adore them. I revere them and I will always speak of them with love and respect and share their stories. Me doing so has nothing to do with people like yourself. Your idea that black people speaking of our ancestors is in any way similar to the actual "white washing" of American history of blacks out of the narrative of our country's story, is pretty laughable to me considering, as I noted that we have more of a connection to this country than you do. Our stories with white Americans from the 1600s forward are intertwined. Today, primarily the white narrative is the only one that is known. Us learning about and sharing our ancestors' experiences, does not "override" or "disintegrate" white Americans. It puts our country's story into a more accurate context.

It is interesting to me that it seems you are okay with just not speaking of "hard" and emotional subjects, such as what black people in this nation endured. That you cannot see it as inspirational and instead see it as some threat to white people and the history of whites in America. If we tell our history, it includes white people. It just includes things you'd rather continue to see "overridden" and "disintegrated." lol
That has been the narrative of Black Americans. It is about constantly enduring, especially when it seemed like there would be no reward for it in the end. Imagine the toughness our ancestors had to have. Being brought to America under duress. And there was no hope of coming to America with the purpose of becoming Americans, finding better opportunities. There was no hope of coming to a brand new land with far more freedom, freedom from oppression. There was none of that. Our ancestors were kidnapped, shacked, and brought here for one purpose: To be slaves. One would have to be tough to endure involuntary servitude for life, to endure the oppression. And then once slavery was over, having to endure more oppression, having to make a way out of no way. In the South it involved being subjected to Jim Crow segregation, one's rights being openly violated. And that violation of one's rights backed up by the KKK. And then in other parts of the country, discrimination existed in large amounts too. And then having to fight back in order to get the rights and privileges we should have had in the first place. Imagine that kind of tough.

Immigrants who came here endured alot. They had to endure the long journey to America. Then face uncertainty at Ellis Island, whether or not they would get in or not. And they were fleeing poverty and oppression in their own countries. And many immigrants faced prejudice here in America for being different. Many came not speaking the language. It was very hard. There is one major difference. Immigrants came with the hope that they could do better in America. Consider this. The late Stan Musial, baseball player for the St. Louis Cardinals. He was the son of a Polish immigrant father (Stan Americanized his name from Stanisław Franciszek Musiał to Stanley Frank Musial) and a Ruthenian mother in western Pennsylvania (same birthplace as Ken Griffey Jr). Stan came from a large poor, Slavic family. It was hard. However, Stan had this. Being the son of an immigrant father, his father said "I came to America for freedom". That dream, that sense of "we're free here" was there. And that is the thing with immigrants coming here. It's hard, but they have something that Black Americans, historically, have never had. That sense of "the American Dream", that sense of "we can make it here". While no Black man could play in the MLB until 1947, Stan Musial was allowed that privilege. He played from 1941 to 1963. There were likely opportunities Stan Musial could have while Blacks were all but shut out of them.

Because of how Black Americans came here, chained, broken, and enslaved, it was a different story.I think the Black American narrative is about a different kind of endurance, a different kind of tough, finding a way to make it and succeed despite the fact that it was never intended for Black Americans to do so. We were brought here for one purpose, to be slaves. That was our intended role. When slavery was abolished, suddenly it became a question of "what to do with these Blacks, these newly freed people". I think about what you said about companies who would hire many immigrants, but wouldn't hire Blacks (unless there was no other choice), this makes my blood boil. At the same time, it also reveals something else. Once slavery was over for good, Blacks were now an unwanted population.

Booker T. Washington had this to say about mass immigration.

Quote:
"To those of the white race who look to the incoming of those of foreign birth and strange tongue and habits for the prosperity of the South, were I permitted I would repeat what I say to my own race, 'cast down your bucket where you are.' Cast it down among the eight millions of Negroes whose habits you know, whose fidelity and love you have tested in days when to have proved treacherous meant the ruin of your firesides. Cast down your bucket among these people who have, without strikes and labour wars, tilled your fields, cleared your forests, built your railroads and cities, and brought forth treasures from the bowels of the earth, and helped make possible this magnificent representation of the progress of the South."
This is what I have to say regarding this. And this is why I don't get angry at immigrants. There were many who preferred immigrants over Blacks. Blacks were now considered an unwanted population. And do not get me wrong. Immigrants faced prejudice coming to this country. At the same time, some likely saw immigrants from Europe coming as a way to displace the Black population. Many saw Chinese and Japanese as a cheaper labor force than Blacks. This is why some southern plantation owners looked to Chinese to work in the fields. Many Chinese left for the West though.

The discrimination was more or less part of "Blacks are not wanted here". Black Americans couldn't be deported thanks to the 14th Amendment. Black Americans would be citizens, therefore, not subject for deportation. The late President Lincoln wanted to send Blacks to the Caribbean. That didn't work out.
 
Old 06-13-2019, 03:10 PM
 
15,494 posts, read 7,911,786 times
Reputation: 8025
Note I also don't have an issue with immigrants. I have white/European immigrant stories in my own family. My 3rd great grandmother (I knew her daughter) was the child of Irish immigrants escaping famine. They came and worked in the mines in WV, which is where she met her black husband's family.

However, my comments were specific to the fact that often white people of recent immigrant ancestry feel that they didn't do "anything" to oppress black people when that is not entirely true at all. As you noted, they were preferred over black Americans with long roots in this country, over people who spoke the language and even were related genetically to white Americans much moreso than an immigrant from Poland or Hungary. They were preferred just because they were not of African ancestry.

Being of African ancestry means that this society will automatically look down on you based on your appearance or known ancestry. Even Nigerians are typically thought of in a negative way to this day in America just because they are black. Primarily theya re labeled as scam artists. Only time you see something positive about them as a group is when racist people want to act like they are superior to black Americans. They overlook the fact that worldwide all people of African descent are stereotyped negatively, not just here in America. We are stereotyped as such because of racism and these people try to pit us against each other and absolve themselves of their racist beliefs because they "didn't own slaves."

Not having a slave owner in your genealogical tree doesn't mean that a person doesn't hold negative, pervasive, racist views of another group of people based on their race. If anything, it is very interesting to me how the more recent white Americans are hugely invested in protecting their whiteness and wanting to shut up black people from speaking of slavery. They also seem to be the ones invested in trying to get us infighting within the African diaspora and pretend we are trying to "destroy" something about them being white when usually it is us speaking positive about our people and ourselves and our bond with the African diaspora over shared experiences that is a threat to them.
 
Old 06-14-2019, 08:14 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 22 days ago)
 
48,296 posts, read 45,587,548 times
Reputation: 15370
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
Note I also don't have an issue with immigrants. I have white/European immigrant stories in my own family. My 3rd great grandmother (I knew her daughter) was the child of Irish immigrants escaping famine. They came and worked in the mines in WV, which is where she met her black husband's family.

However, my comments were specific to the fact that often white people of recent immigrant ancestry feel that they didn't do "anything" to oppress black people when that is not entirely true at all. As you noted, they were preferred over black Americans with long roots in this country, over people who spoke the language and even were related genetically to white Americans much moreso than an immigrant from Poland or Hungary. They were preferred just because they were not of African ancestry.

Being of African ancestry means that this society will automatically look down on you based on your appearance or known ancestry. Even Nigerians are typically thought of in a negative way to this day in America just because they are black. Primarily theya re labeled as scam artists. Only time you see something positive about them as a group is when racist people want to act like they are superior to black Americans. They overlook the fact that worldwide all people of African descent are stereotyped negatively, not just here in America. We are stereotyped as such because of racism and these people try to pit us against each other and absolve themselves of their racist beliefs because they "didn't own slaves."

Not having a slave owner in your genealogical tree doesn't mean that a person doesn't hold negative, pervasive, racist views of another group of people based on their race. If anything, it is very interesting to me how the more recent white Americans are hugely invested in protecting their whiteness and wanting to shut up black people from speaking of slavery. They also seem to be the ones invested in trying to get us infighting within the African diaspora and pretend we are trying to "destroy" something about them being white when usually it is us speaking positive about our people and ourselves and our bond with the African diaspora over shared experiences that is a threat to them.
I have a bit of White ancestry myself, mostly Irish, and a bit of French via Louisiana Creole ancestry.

When someone says "My family didn't own slaves", this is the thing: We know said persons had nothing to do with that. It is about immigrants who came and were able to have opportunities, but Blacks who had been there for years were always locked out of those opportunities. It is also about Blacks not really being wanted in this country.

Being Black will often mean you're looked down on. I speak from personal experience. However, even that has its own pecking order. While people of African ancestry are looked down on, African immigrants are likely to be preferred over Black Americans who have generations within this country. Immigrants from Nigeria, Ghana, Kenya, Cameroon, Senegal, they aren't reminders of the worst America can throw at people. They might get judged by their skin color, but not in the same way a Black American would. At one time, Chinese and Japanese immigrants were very despised. Now, they are seen as "the model minority". This also applies to other Asian ethnic groups in the USA. "Model minority" might be seen as a compliment. At the same time, it is also used as a backhanded remark. It is often used as a backhanded compliment for the purpose of complaining about Black Americans. The idea of "why can't Blacks be more like Asians". Now, African immigrants are being used for the same purpose. Now it's "Why can't Black Americans be more like Africans". This thread is symptomatic of that.

I agree that not having a slave owner in your family doesn't mean you're less prejudice. Plenty of prejudice people didn't own slaves. Go back to the old days of America. Blacks were looked down on in free states as well as slave states. The state of Oregon, which came in as a free state, put this into its laws, in 1859: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon...exclusion_laws

Quote:
No free negro or mulatto not residing in this state at the time of the adoption of this constitution, shall come, reside or be within this state or hold any real estate, or make any contracts, or maintain any suit therein; and the legislative assembly shall provide by penal laws for the removal by public officers of all such negroes and mulattoes, and for their effectual exclusion from the state, and for the punishment of persons who shall bring them into the state, or employ or harbor them.
The exclusion law was invalidated after the Civil War, and some Blacks did move to Oregon. However, that law remained on the books until 1926.

Some people are invested in shutting up Black people from talking about slavery because it's about wanting to be on top. Black Americans have been at the very bottom, both socially and economically. And this has been the case going back to the days of slavery. There isn't much of a desire to relate to what Black Americans have been through. Black Americans have also been seen as competition. The idea is not to be at the bottom, where Black Americans have always been. And there have been cases where if some immigrants did treat Black Americans as equals, they would suffer for it. The Tallulah lynchings of several Italian shopkeepers is an example. Persons in the town heard of Italian shopkeepers treating Black people as equals. This angered some people and some Italians got lynched. Immigrants faced prejudice, especially if they weren't of Northern European background. At the same time, such immigrants were put in a class between Whites and Blacks. They were in the middle. They were looked down on. At the same time, not to the same level as Blacks. While there were certainly "Irish need not apply" signs, Blacks were getting this, and much worse.

To sum this up, no one here is saying that immigrants who didn't own slaves had anything to do with slave. What I am saying is this. Immigrants, for the prejudices they have faced, have been preferred over Blacks for the longest time. I would also say that Black Americans have had their success stories, in spite of the oppression they have faced in this country.
 
Old 06-14-2019, 08:45 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,333 posts, read 19,603,768 times
Reputation: 13138
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
I would also say that Black Americans have had their success stories, in spite of the oppression they have faced in this country.
The defining characteristic of people who succeed economically in America is high educational attainment level.

This applies to African Americans, African immigrants, Asians, Hispanics, whites, etc., etc.

It is a pretty simple formula.
 
Old 06-14-2019, 08:47 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 22 days ago)
 
48,296 posts, read 45,587,548 times
Reputation: 15370
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCityDreamer View Post
The defining characteristic of people who succeed economically in America is high educational attainment level.

This applies to African Americans, African immigrants, Asians, Hispanics, whites, etc., etc.
It is true that the better educated you are, the more likely you are to succeed. However, I don't think you got the point regarding what I was talking about.
 
Old 06-14-2019, 08:51 AM
 
1,356 posts, read 696,249 times
Reputation: 792
It's not that damn hard, just get a truck and a mower and mow some lawns. That's all there really is to it, just work. Beats working at walmart.
 
Old 06-14-2019, 08:57 AM
 
Location: East Coast of the United States
17,333 posts, read 19,603,768 times
Reputation: 13138
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
It is true that the better educated you are, the more likely you are to succeed. However, I don't think you got the point regarding what I was talking about.
Most people who grew up in United States know about the history of slavery, Jim Crow and racism against African Americans. That said, a lot of people question whether there is still a significant amount of racism against African-Americans over the last 50 years or so.

It seems to me that the vast majority of Americans and immigrants today treat middle-class African-Americans the same as everybody else. It is true that people look down on crime and drugs in low-income areas of inner cities, but that is different.
 
Old 06-14-2019, 09:10 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 22 days ago)
 
48,296 posts, read 45,587,548 times
Reputation: 15370
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedergras View Post
It's not that damn hard, just get a truck and a mower and mow some lawns. That's all there really is to it, just work. Beats working at walmart.
If you live in the inner city, not many lawns to mow. That might be good advice for a teenager who actually lives in a neighborhood where there are plenty of lawns to mower, and said person has access to a lawn mower. If not, then you're going to look for a job anywhere you can. People do what they know how to do where they are. First you have to be offered a job.
 
Old 06-14-2019, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Texas
26,827 posts, read 11,255,805 times
Reputation: 6164
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
It is true that the better educated you are, the more likely you are to succeed. However, I don't think you got the point regarding what I was talking about.
Because your point was silly and had no meaning. It's about finishing high school, working a fulltime job, and waiting unto you're 21 to get married and have kids. Do only those 3 things and you'll have a 75% chance of being middle class or higher and less than a 5% chance of being permanently poor.

Granted that means the slavery crutch can't be played.
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