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Old 06-08-2019, 05:01 PM
 
32,522 posts, read 26,415,828 times
Reputation: 19170

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
California has the worst problem but they aren't alone, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake and others, Manufacturers didn't realize what they were getting into, I don't see them using the CA standard on all their cars or the 2016 standards.

well the states can either adopt the california standards, or the federal standards, or fall somewhere between the feds and cali.
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Old 06-08-2019, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Downtown Phoenix, AZ
18,926 posts, read 6,911,653 times
Reputation: 5862
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape Cod Todd View Post
Why don't the auto makers keep progressing and striving for better MPG on their own? What consumer wouldn't want to get more miles to the gallon so give it to them?



Why do they need a Government mandate to make a decision that will benefit the consumer and the planet?
Tell that to the big 3 back in 1974, when the fleet average was only 9 mpg....
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:10 PM
 
Location: PSL
8,231 posts, read 2,214,790 times
Reputation: 2936
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
Tell that to the big 3 back in 1974, when the fleet average was only 9 mpg....
That will happen when you arbitrarily mandate a smog pump and all the other nonsense measures such as lowering compression will get you.

I can build you 400+hp that will yeild 25+mpg.
Or I can build you 190-250hp that will yeild 9...

There's a reason why alternators have become massive and power steering has become electronic...
Smog pumps and all the other accessories are a parasitic drain. Couple that with low compression.... yeah. I can get you a wimpy hp rating and terrible fuel economy too...
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Old 06-08-2019, 10:31 PM
 
Location: Downtown Phoenix, AZ
18,926 posts, read 6,911,653 times
Reputation: 5862
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY_refugee87 View Post
That will happen when you arbitrarily mandate a smog pump and all the other nonsense measures such as lowering compression will get you.

I can build you 400+hp that will yeild 25+mpg.
Or I can build you 190-250hp that will yeild 9...

There's a reason why alternators have become massive and power steering has become electronic...
Smog pumps and all the other accessories are a parasitic drain. Couple that with low compression.... yeah. I can get you a wimpy hp rating and terrible fuel economy too...
Even in the 60s, full size cars (the bulk of sales at the time) were getting 6 to 8 mpg, before emissions equipment. It was the size and weight of the cars, plus the lower technology of the high displacement V8s of the time. My dads 1969 Grand Prix with the 428HO only got 8mpg
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Old 06-08-2019, 10:45 PM
 
Location: PSL
8,231 posts, read 2,214,790 times
Reputation: 2936
Quote:
Originally Posted by FirebirdCamaro1220 View Post
Even in the 60s, full size cars (the bulk of sales at the time) were getting 6 to 8 mpg, before emissions equipment. It was the size and weight of the cars, plus the lower technology of the high displacement V8s of the time. My dads 1969 Grand Prix with the 428HO only got 8mpg
That will happen with carburetors and distributors...
Carburetors essentially are a toilet.

Build that 428 HO with a simple MPI system and get a programable PCM to control ignition and fuel dwell.
Never mind a direct injection system. Or with pistons that optimize quench. Nor the tighter tolerances like modern engines are manufactured to...

Just a simple MPI system. You'd be amazed.
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:21 PM
 
32,522 posts, read 26,415,828 times
Reputation: 19170
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY_refugee87 View Post
That will happen when you arbitrarily mandate a smog pump and all the other nonsense measures such as lowering compression will get you.

I can build you 400+hp that will yeild 25+mpg.
Or I can build you 190-250hp that will yeild 9...

There's a reason why alternators have become massive and power steering has become electronic...
Smog pumps and all the other accessories are a parasitic drain. Couple that with low compression.... yeah. I can get you a wimpy hp rating and terrible fuel economy too...
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY_refugee87 View Post
That will happen with carburetors and distributors...
Carburetors essentially are a toilet.

Build that 428 HO with a simple MPI system and get a programable PCM to control ignition and fuel dwell.
Never mind a direct injection system. Or with pistons that optimize quench. Nor the tighter tolerances like modern engines are manufactured to...

Just a simple MPI system. You'd be amazed.

NY i agree with you, to a point. you are trying to compare apples and oranges though at this point. remember that back in time, even up to the early 90s, fuel economy suffered due to a lack of technology compared to the late 90s on up. even early EFI systems suffered in comparison to today.


for instance, my 83 grand marquis 5.0 CFI rarely topped 10 mpg and that was on the freeway. my current 05 grand marquis regularly hits 17 around town, with the a/c on. and a big part of that is not only the MAF system, but the coil on plug and the sefi system working together to tune each cylinder individually. my 83 had none of that.


on the other hand my 66 mustang with a 600cfm holley carb would turn in 25 mpg on the freeway. and it even had the wrong cam for the overall combination.
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:23 PM
 
10,754 posts, read 2,750,968 times
Reputation: 7243
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY_refugee87 View Post
Or... automanufacturers can grow a spine and tell regulators where to go and how to get there and continue to produce what they want opposed to what those respective 13 states want.

That's what I'd be doing. I wouldn't appease nanny states.
I wouldn't be conforming to what any state or federal entity declared I need to conform to.

In terms of all things automotive. 90% of regulations placed upon the automotive industry do nothing but arbitrarily raise coats for we the consumer.
What's even more amusing...

I played with diesel pickup trucks. You know. Those evil hexus spewing hillbilly things...

A properly tuned modern diesel engine can in fact produce more horsepower and torque while not producing a rolling black cloud of soot, nor even a slight bit of haze. I've seen it first hand on dynos with 5 gas analyzers in the tailpipes with that emissions equipment from the factory gone. Egr cooler/egr system and diesel particulate filter MIA. Diesels absolutely can be clean. They absolutely can be emissions deleted.
It is all in the tuning.
Same with gas engines too.

I've seen engines on stands in dyno rooms. Each exhaust port have its own 02 sensor. Each intake port, it's own independent throttle body. Emissions reduced drastically power output increased tremendously.

But. Since the push is for mileage and "cleaner emissions" as per .gov mandates... we can not have nice things.
Just have to have rare earth material packed catalytic converters...
Just have to keep choking up engines with restrictive exhausts in vain of cleaner emissions... There's more than 1 way to achieve it...

In terms of deisels. Every catastrophic engine failure I have repaired, has been directly caused by emissions control devices. Every single one of them.

Funny with that emissions crap gone they go 100s of thousands of miles issue free...
The costs incurred from down time loss of use, cost of repairs? All burdenous mandates and regulations. Couple that with corporate penny pinchers always looking to cut corners to save pennies to add up to saving millions...
It's we the consumer who wind up paying for it.

I'd bring back Studebaker Nash and Packard.
You wouldn't see airbags as standard features. 5 point harnesses. So long as you are strapped securely to a seat. Airbags are not needed.
You wouldn't see traction control and stability control as standard feature either.
That vehicle can't see that tree fastly approaching while sideways in a snow storm. All it knows to do is force command idle and maintain an uncontrolled slide.
Automatic transmissions wouldn't be standard feature either.
Can't text and drive when you need to rev match and down shift to pull a hill.
Can't drink and drive when you need to up and down shift.

I'd build affordable, simple so simple you yourself could perform repairs in your driveway with basic hand tools. Crash worthy too.

Packard would be the ultimate in luxury.
Studebaker would be the average Joe's with a bit of performance enthusiasts in mind.
Nash would be the low income/teenagers/basic form of transportation.
I'd even make the little metropolitan again. With just enough room to shove a small block in.

All would be rearwheel drive platform. Not that feeble wheel understeering nonsense. AWD as an option.

Trucks would absolutely give Ford GM and Mopar a run for their money in terms of towing hauling and ability. Fuel economy too.

Combine the best of both worlds from GM/Mopar and Ford.

Pushrod V8s with the ability to drop down to 4 cylinders based upon calculated load.
With turbochargers present.
40mpg and 500hp pushrod V8s for everyone.

Only reason my trucks would have 20 inch+ wheels from the factory would solely be for the largest diameter brake rotors and biggest calipers I can get in there to increase stopping power for towing hauling and in general.

And diesels.
I'd make a Itty bitty 3 or 4 cylinder turbo diesel for the little metropolitan. Common rail, variable geometry turbocharger, design a high pressure fuel pump that is compatible with waste oil/waste veggie oil. It'd have something like 300hp and 400+ft lbs of torque. As simple as can be with room in the engine bay too. There'd be a 70+mpg vehicle.

Trucks again... simple and powerful with the small business owner, fleet owner, in mind. Simple. Easy and cost effective to repair. No need to tear a cab off to access the engine. Even in the event of a catastrophic engine failure. No need to remove the body. Cough cough ford. Cough.

Every vehicle would be body on frame construction. None of that throw away uni body crap.

Capture C02 from the air. Produce a polymer with it for the interior components and as a protective coating to the under body and chassis. It would laugh at North east road salt and folks in MA and CT wouldn't fail for rust through on their bodies anymore as fenders and quarter panels rocker panels any body panel directly exposed to road salt would be sealed and coated with a polymer. Just like steel cased 7.62x39 rounds.

No rust develops on those as a result of properly being coated with a high temperature resistant polymer.

It's wonderful being a hotrodder and racer. Especially if you have friends in the know who can augment your enhancements with their code writing abilities to make programs to upload to a PCM TCM and in some cases, FICM EEPROM.

The only thing stopping me is asinine regulations which act as a double edged sword to protect and harm the big names in the automotive manufacturing industry.
They can afford the fines and penalties. I cant.
I agree 100%, I rebuilt a Yanmar 3 cyl diesel from an mid 90s commercial outfront mower, that little engine was putting about close to 36hp and could probably have been brought up to around 50hp without too much hassle or loss. It could have easily powered a small daily driver, did I mention how indestructible these engines are?!! I have no idea what kind of MPG it would get put into a daily driver on the roads, but I bet it would be close to 70 Mpg +.



I also had this Yanmar running totally clean, no black smoke at all, didnt leak or burn oil either.
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:38 AM
 
37,061 posts, read 16,164,011 times
Reputation: 8437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cape Cod Todd View Post
Why don't the auto makers keep progressing and striving for better MPG on their own? What consumer wouldn't want to get more miles to the gallon so give it to them?



Why do they need a Government mandate to make a decision that will benefit the consumer and the planet?
"Why don't the auto makers keep progressing and striving for better MPG on their own?"


What makes you think they DON'T?
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Old 06-09-2019, 06:57 AM
 
Location: SC
8,794 posts, read 5,678,521 times
Reputation: 12805
If you think the E.P.A has all the power and "grants" rights to states and there is no recorse or power in the states, you are simply wrong.

https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/...A-12991390.php
https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/ag-s...ital-clean-air
https://www.newstimes.com/news/artic...Bush-46120.php
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Old 06-09-2019, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Long Island
33,149 posts, read 13,994,163 times
Reputation: 7091
Quote:
Originally Posted by blktoptrvl View Post
If you think the E.P.A has all the power and "grants" rights to states and there is no recorse or power in the states, you are simply wrong.

https://www.ctpost.com/news/article/...A-12991390.php
https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/ag-s...ital-clean-air
https://www.newstimes.com/news/artic...Bush-46120.php
That is exactly why these 13 states will likely win if they roll back the mileage requirements, there is a history.
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