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Old 06-08-2019, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Long Island
33,130 posts, read 13,986,163 times
Reputation: 7077

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The auto companies asked for relief from the Obama era mileage requirements and Trump went all the way freezing the standard at 37MPG down from the 54.5 MPG by 2025. Problem is that 13 states will not relent on vehicles sold in their state so the manufacturers have a dilemma, one solution is to raise the price on gas guzzlers while lowering the price on electric vehicles in high mileage requirement states.


It doesn't make any sense to freeze mileage requirements, maybe there is a happy medium.


Quote:
WASHINGTON — The world’s largest automakers warned President Trump on Thursday that one of his most sweeping deregulatory efforts — his plan to weaken tailpipe pollution standards — threatens to cut their profits and produce “untenable” instability in a crucial manufacturing sector.
In a letter signed by 17 companies including Ford, General Motors, Toyota and Volvo, the automakers asked Mr. Trump to go back to the negotiating table on the planned rollback of one of President Barack Obama’s signature policies to fight climate change.
The carmakers are addressing a crisis that is partly of their own making. They had sought some changes to the pollution standards early in the Trump presidency, but have since grown alarmed at the expanding scope of the administration’s plan

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/06/c...ck-letter.html
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Old 06-08-2019, 08:32 AM
 
Location: Texas
35,322 posts, read 19,340,586 times
Reputation: 20929
If "it doesn't make sense" then it's probably a tRump policy.

Nonsense is his strong suit.

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Old 06-08-2019, 08:42 AM
 
4,989 posts, read 2,013,678 times
Reputation: 2257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
The auto companies asked for relief from the Obama era mileage requirements and Trump went all the way freezing the standard at 37MPG down from the 54.5 MPG by 2025. Problem is that 13 states will not relent on vehicles sold in their state so the manufacturers have a dilemma, one solution is to raise the price on gas guzzlers while lowering the price on electric vehicles in high mileage requirement states.

It doesn't make any sense to freeze mileage requirements, maybe there is a happy medium.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/06/c...ck-letter.html

Since their power to regulate comes from an EPA edict, California will compromise eventually.
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:09 AM
 
Location: PSL
8,231 posts, read 2,213,560 times
Reputation: 2936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
The auto companies asked for relief from the Obama era mileage requirements and Trump went all the way freezing the standard at 37MPG down from the 54.5 MPG by 2025. Problem is that 13 states will not relent on vehicles sold in their state so the manufacturers have a dilemma, one solution is to raise the price on gas guzzlers while lowering the price on electric vehicles in high mileage requirement states.


It doesn't make any sense to freeze mileage requirements, maybe there is a happy medium.





https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/06/c...ck-letter.html
Or... automanufacturers can grow a spine and tell regulators where to go and how to get there and continue to produce what they want opposed to what those respective 13 states want.

That's what I'd be doing. I wouldn't appease nanny states.
I wouldn't be conforming to what any state or federal entity declared I need to conform to.

In terms of all things automotive. 90% of regulations placed upon the automotive industry do nothing but arbitrarily raise coats for we the consumer.
What's even more amusing...

I played with diesel pickup trucks. You know. Those evil hexus spewing hillbilly things...

A properly tuned modern diesel engine can in fact produce more horsepower and torque while not producing a rolling black cloud of soot, nor even a slight bit of haze. I've seen it first hand on dynos with 5 gas analyzers in the tailpipes with that emissions equipment from the factory gone. Egr cooler/egr system and diesel particulate filter MIA. Diesels absolutely can be clean. They absolutely can be emissions deleted.
It is all in the tuning.
Same with gas engines too.

I've seen engines on stands in dyno rooms. Each exhaust port have its own 02 sensor. Each intake port, it's own independent throttle body. Emissions reduced drastically power output increased tremendously.

But. Since the push is for mileage and "cleaner emissions" as per .gov mandates... we can not have nice things.
Just have to have rare earth material packed catalytic converters...
Just have to keep choking up engines with restrictive exhausts in vain of cleaner emissions... There's more than 1 way to achieve it...

In terms of deisels. Every catastrophic engine failure I have repaired, has been directly caused by emissions control devices. Every single one of them.

Funny with that emissions crap gone they go 100s of thousands of miles issue free...
The costs incurred from down time loss of use, cost of repairs? All burdenous mandates and regulations. Couple that with corporate penny pinchers always looking to cut corners to save pennies to add up to saving millions...
It's we the consumer who wind up paying for it.

I'd bring back Studebaker Nash and Packard.
You wouldn't see airbags as standard features. 5 point harnesses. So long as you are strapped securely to a seat. Airbags are not needed.
You wouldn't see traction control and stability control as standard feature either.
That vehicle can't see that tree fastly approaching while sideways in a snow storm. All it knows to do is force command idle and maintain an uncontrolled slide.
Automatic transmissions wouldn't be standard feature either.
Can't text and drive when you need to rev match and down shift to pull a hill.
Can't drink and drive when you need to up and down shift.

I'd build affordable, simple so simple you yourself could perform repairs in your driveway with basic hand tools. Crash worthy too.

Packard would be the ultimate in luxury.
Studebaker would be the average Joe's with a bit of performance enthusiasts in mind.
Nash would be the low income/teenagers/basic form of transportation.
I'd even make the little metropolitan again. With just enough room to shove a small block in.

All would be rearwheel drive platform. Not that feeble wheel understeering nonsense. AWD as an option.

Trucks would absolutely give Ford GM and Mopar a run for their money in terms of towing hauling and ability. Fuel economy too.

Combine the best of both worlds from GM/Mopar and Ford.

Pushrod V8s with the ability to drop down to 4 cylinders based upon calculated load.
With turbochargers present.
40mpg and 500hp pushrod V8s for everyone.

Only reason my trucks would have 20 inch+ wheels from the factory would solely be for the largest diameter brake rotors and biggest calipers I can get in there to increase stopping power for towing hauling and in general.

And diesels.
I'd make a Itty bitty 3 or 4 cylinder turbo diesel for the little metropolitan. Common rail, variable geometry turbocharger, design a high pressure fuel pump that is compatible with waste oil/waste veggie oil. It'd have something like 300hp and 400+ft lbs of torque. As simple as can be with room in the engine bay too. There'd be a 70+mpg vehicle.

Trucks again... simple and powerful with the small business owner, fleet owner, in mind. Simple. Easy and cost effective to repair. No need to tear a cab off to access the engine. Even in the event of a catastrophic engine failure. No need to remove the body. Cough cough ford. Cough.

Every vehicle would be body on frame construction. None of that throw away uni body crap.

Capture C02 from the air. Produce a polymer with it for the interior components and as a protective coating to the under body and chassis. It would laugh at North east road salt and folks in MA and CT wouldn't fail for rust through on their bodies anymore as fenders and quarter panels rocker panels any body panel directly exposed to road salt would be sealed and coated with a polymer. Just like steel cased 7.62x39 rounds.

No rust develops on those as a result of properly being coated with a high temperature resistant polymer.

It's wonderful being a hotrodder and racer. Especially if you have friends in the know who can augment your enhancements with their code writing abilities to make programs to upload to a PCM TCM and in some cases, FICM EEPROM.

The only thing stopping me is asinine regulations which act as a double edged sword to protect and harm the big names in the automotive manufacturing industry.
They can afford the fines and penalties. I cant.
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:12 AM
 
Location: Long Island
33,130 posts, read 13,986,163 times
Reputation: 7077
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultor View Post
Since their power to regulate comes from an EPA edict, California will compromise eventually.
They are just starting rulemaking this summer so I'm surprised they are just hearing from car manufacturers now. This won't be resolved for some time and meanwhile the current standards stay in effect, This creates instability for manufacturers. California has some large pollution problems so I don't see them backing off.
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Long Island
33,130 posts, read 13,986,163 times
Reputation: 7077
Quote:
Originally Posted by NY_refugee87 View Post
Or... automanufacturers can grow a spine and tell regulators where to go and how to get there and continue to produce what they want opposed to what those respective 13 states want.

That's what I'd be doing. I wouldn't appease nanny states.
I wouldn't be conforming to what any state or federal entity declared I need to conform to.

In terms of all things automotive. 90% of regulations placed upon the automotive industry do nothing but arbitrarily raise coats for we the consumer.
What's even more amusing...

I played with diesel pickup trucks. You know. Those evil hexus spewing hillbilly things...

A properly tuned modern diesel engine can in fact produce more horsepower and torque while not producing a rolling black cloud of soot, nor even a slight bit of haze. I've seen it first hand on dynos with 5 gas analyzers in the tailpipes with that emissions equipment from the factory gone. Egr cooler/egr system and diesel particulate filter MIA. Diesels absolutely can be clean. They absolutely can be emissions deleted.
It is all in the tuning.
Same with gas engines too.

I've seen engines on stands in dyno rooms. Each exhaust port have its own 02 sensor. Each intake port, it's own independent throttle body. Emissions reduced drastically power output increased tremendously.

But. Since the push is for mileage and "cleaner emissions" as per .gov mandates... we can not have nice things.
Just have to have rare earth material packed catalytic converters...
Just have to keep choking up engines with restrictive exhausts in vain of cleaner emissions... There's more than 1 way to achieve it...

In terms of deisels. Every catastrophic engine failure I have repaired, has been directly caused by emissions control devices. Every single one of them.

Funny with that emissions crap gone they go 100s of thousands of miles issue free...
The costs incurred from down time loss of use, cost of repairs? All burdenous mandates and regulations. Couple that with corporate penny pinchers always looking to cut corners to save pennies to add up to saving millions...
It's we the consumer who wind up paying for it.

I'd bring back Studebaker Nash and Packard.
You wouldn't see airbags as standard features. 5 point harnesses. So long as you are strapped securely to a seat. Airbags are not needed.
You wouldn't see traction control and stability control as standard feature either.
That vehicle can't see that tree fastly approaching while sideways in a snow storm. All it knows to do is force command idle and maintain an uncontrolled slide.
Automatic transmissions wouldn't be standard feature either.
Can't text and drive when you need to rev match and down shift to pull a hill.
Can't drink and drive when you need to up and down shift.

I'd build affordable, simple so simple you yourself could perform repairs in your driveway with basic hand tools. Crash worthy too.

Packard would be the ultimate in luxury.
Studebaker would be the average Joe's with a bit of performance enthusiasts in mind.
Nash would be the low income/teenagers/basic form of transportation.
I'd even make the little metropolitan again. With just enough room to shove a small block in.

All would be rearwheel drive platform. Not that feeble wheel understeering nonsense. AWD as an option.

Trucks would absolutely give Ford GM and Mopar a run for their money in terms of towing hauling and ability. Fuel economy too.

Combine the best of both worlds from GM/Mopar and Ford.

Pushrod V8s with the ability to drop down to 4 cylinders based upon calculated load.
With turbochargers present.
40mpg and 500hp pushrod V8s for everyone.

Only reason my trucks would have 20 inch+ wheels from the factory would solely be for the largest diameter brake rotors and biggest calipers I can get in there to increase stopping power for towing hauling and in general.

And diesels.
I'd make a Itty bitty 3 or 4 cylinder turbo diesel for the little metropolitan. Common rail, variable geometry turbocharger, design a high pressure fuel pump that is compatible with waste oil/waste veggie oil. It'd have something like 300hp and 400+ft lbs of torque. As simple as can be with room in the engine bay too. There'd be a 70+mpg vehicle.

Trucks again... simple and powerful with the small business owner, fleet owner, in mind. Simple. Easy and cost effective to repair. No need to tear a cab off to access the engine. Even in the event of a catastrophic engine failure. No need to remove the body. Cough cough ford. Cough.

Every vehicle would be body on frame construction. None of that throw away uni body crap.

Capture C02 from the air. Produce a polymer with it for the interior components and as a protective coating to the under body and chassis. It would laugh at North east road salt and folks in MA and CT wouldn't fail for rust through on their bodies anymore as fenders and quarter panels rocker panels any body panel directly exposed to road salt would be sealed and coated with a polymer. Just like steel cased 7.62x39 rounds.

No rust develops on those as a result of properly being coated with a high temperature resistant polymer.

It's wonderful being a hotrodder and racer. Especially if you have friends in the know who can augment your enhancements with their code writing abilities to make programs to upload to a PCM TCM and in some cases, FICM EEPROM.

The only thing stopping me is asinine regulations which act as a double edged sword to protect and harm the big names in the automotive manufacturing industry.
They can afford the fines and penalties. I cant.
This could be tied up in the courts for some time if this goes forward, same as health care and everything else, That's not healthy for any industry making decisions. When Trump announced this some manufacturers closed plants producing passenger vehicles and went to SUV's and trucks because they are popular.
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:17 AM
 
37,060 posts, read 16,156,669 times
Reputation: 8436
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
The auto companies asked for relief from the Obama era mileage requirements and Trump went all the way freezing the standard at 37MPG down from the 54.5 MPG by 2025. Problem is that 13 states will not relent on vehicles sold in their state so the manufacturers have a dilemma, one solution is to raise the price on gas guzzlers while lowering the price on electric vehicles in high mileage requirement states.


It doesn't make any sense to freeze mileage requirements, maybe there is a happy medium.





https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/06/c...ck-letter.html
"It doesn't make any sense to freeze mileage requirements"

Obviously it DOES make sense to a lot of people.

Are you an expert in the field?

"while lowering the price on electric vehicles" and where do most electric cars get re-charged and where does THAT come from?
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:18 AM
 
Location: Cape Cod
11,877 posts, read 8,284,872 times
Reputation: 20412
Why don't the auto makers keep progressing and striving for better MPG on their own? What consumer wouldn't want to get more miles to the gallon so give it to them?



Why do they need a Government mandate to make a decision that will benefit the consumer and the planet?
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:24 AM
 
4,989 posts, read 2,013,678 times
Reputation: 2257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
They are just starting rulemaking this summer so I'm surprised they are just hearing from car manufacturers now. This won't be resolved for some time and meanwhile the current standards stay in effect, This creates instability for manufacturers. California has some large pollution problems so I don't see them backing off.
They will back off... they won't take the chance of losing their regulatory powers in a court action.
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:52 AM
 
Location: PSL
8,231 posts, read 2,213,560 times
Reputation: 2936
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
When Trump announced this some manufacturers closed plants producing passenger vehicles and went to SUV's and trucks because they are popular.
So? You say that like it's a bad thing.
Remember early 00s GM? Didn't pay to have multiples of product that wasn't selling...

You follow the market and produce what sells and is in demand. Being complacent gets you Harley Davidson.

They ignored entire generations for years catering to a literal dying market.
Who'd have thunk it. 30k+ geezer glides are irrelevant and not popular with younger generations...

There's numerous reasons why trucks and SUVs are popular...

Versatility. Crash worthiness. Cost to insure typically lower than the cost of a midsized sedan, that may change. Cabin space/room. Younger generations being fond of rear wheel drive. Both of my trucks are cheaper to insure combined than my sisters or brother in laws.

My highschool days, everyone who wanted a mustang, firebird, camaro, those vehicles were cost prohibitive-insurance.
We bought trucks instead.
V8. An afternoon and a few hundred in parts you had a respectable go fast vehicle.
Rear wheel drive.
Full frame. Crash worthy.
Lift or lower. Increasing vehicle capability either off roading or cornering.
That 10+ year old 500-1,200 dollar truck with a thousand thrown at the engine and thousand or 2 into the suspension yielded a very fun and affordable vehicle.

Others bought grandma's grocery getting Honda civic and put fart cannon exhausts and painted them like easter eggs after adding a super bee or Daytona spoiler on the back.
Few were into euro tuners like VW Corrados and older Audis.

Only ones with camaros, mustangs, and fire birds were daddy's money spoiled kids.

Mid sized sedans? Nah... they don't offer anything. Neither do compacts.
Cookie cutter feeble wheel drive junk product is junk product.
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