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View Poll Results: Would you rather pay $5000 more in private premiums than $2000 more in health care taxes?
Yes, paying more to the insurance companies ensure that I am free 27 29.67%
No, paying less into a Medicare-style system is the sensible thing to do 64 70.33%
Voters: 91. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-09-2019, 04:33 PM
 
Location: Jewel Lake (Sagle) Idaho
27,498 posts, read 17,624,051 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCALMike View Post
It makes no sense that a for-profit system would be cheaper. No sense. A for-profit system is geared towards price gouging desperate patients and an insurance system is an administrative mess. It has to be far more expensive than a tax-funded system and it is.
A for-profit system is for minimizing costs while offering a quality service. Competition drives both factors. A government run system focuses on minimizing effort and increasing the jobs for unaccountable government bureaucrats.
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Old 06-09-2019, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Midwest
31,359 posts, read 19,612,643 times
Reputation: 7859
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
A for-profit system is for minimizing costs while offering a quality service. Competition drives both factors. A government run system focuses on minimizing effort and increasing the jobs for unaccountable government bureaucrats.
"For profit" is a conflict of interest in healthcare. Insurance policy
How an industry shifted from protecting patients to seeking profit
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Old 06-09-2019, 05:59 PM
 
963 posts, read 189,840 times
Reputation: 689
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
If anyone actually believes a taxpayer-funded system administered by the federal government will be less expensive than private insurance, I have a bridge to sell you. It's a really NICE bridge.

600+ million people in 30+ other 1st world countries are living under a "grueling" taxpayer funded system..
Getting equal or better care then Americans, at 1/2 the cost.

They figured it out 60-70 years ago... its not rocket science, however much the Republicans lie about it.
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Old 06-09-2019, 11:53 PM
 
4,323 posts, read 879,824 times
Reputation: 2400
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuilterChick View Post
Hey there Normstad: ^^^ Move to Canada. Report back.
I AM Canadian.

https://youtu.be/WMxGVfk09lU

Who lives half the time in the USA.
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Old 06-09-2019, 11:56 PM
 
4,323 posts, read 879,824 times
Reputation: 2400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mircea View Post
The Tuskegee Syphilis Study.

Do you deny your government did that? I sure hope not, because they did.

The Atomic Veterans and New Jersey Victims.

Do you deny your government did that? I sure hope not, because they did. The US government spent 50 years denying it had ever conducted nuclear weapons tests on US soil, in spite of the fact that the tests were published in newspapers and hotels in Reno, Nevada held roof-top parties for guests to watch the test-shots and some even filmed them with their film cameras. Many people in New Jersey died of thyroid cancer, while many more had to have their thyroids removed, and still many more are on medication to this day.

Your Congress has repeatedly refused to compensate them, but strange how your government managed warn Eastman-Kodak (headquartered in New Jersey at the time) to protect its film and negatives from the fall-out by storing them in lead-lined vaults.

Do you deny 89 Americans were murdered by your government during illegal radiation experiments at Cincinnati General Hospital?

I sure hope not. It's been estimated that more than 360 were murdered, maybe as many as 400. It's still unknown, because those documents are still classified, even those Dr Sanger who ran those illegal experiments admitted it in newspaper interviews and in court where the victim's families sued.

Do you deny this?...

"VA adherence to the DOD "no exposures" doctrine, often in the face of compelling clinical evidence to the contrary, could be viewed as Department-wide medical malpractice. - the Honorable Jesse Brown, Secretary of Veteran's Affairs

I sure hope not.

What if it were this...

"Medical adherence to the Medicare "no HIV" doctrine, often in the face of compelling clinical evidence to the contrary, could be viewed as Department-wide medical malpractice.

Or this...

"Medical adherence to the Medicare "no Ebola" doctrine, often in the face of compelling clinical evidence to the contrary, could be viewed as Department-wide medical malpractice.

Or this...

"Medical adherence to the Medicare "no Alzheimer's" doctrine, often in the face of compelling clinical evidence to the contrary, could be viewed as Department-wide medical malpractice.

Or this...

"Medical adherence to the Medicare "no Opiod-crisis" doctrine, often in the face of compelling clinical evidence to the contrary, could be viewed as Department-wide medical malpractice.


What would get your attention?

Your government has a habit of running amok, and to give them power and control over your medical records and your medical care is just too great a temptation for them.



The CONCORD Study shows the US did better than Canada.

The 5-year survival rate for the 4 most common cancers:

Breast Cancer: UK 69.7% while US leads the World at 83.9% If you're a woman, you want to be in the US, not the UK.

Colorectal Men: UK 42.3% while US leads the World at 59.1%

Colorectal Women: 44.7% for the UK while US leads the World at 60.2%

Prostate: UK 51.1% while US leads the World at 91.9% If you're a man, you want to be in the US, not the UK, because your survival chances are 1.7x better than in the UK.

Canada was 2nd for breast cancer behind the US, 3rd for prostate cancer behind the US and Austria, 2nd to the US in colorectal cancer for women and 4th behind the US, France and Australia for colorectal cancer for men.

The CONCORD study was conducted by the US Centers for Disease Control (CDC), the British National Health Service (NHS) and the British medical journal Lancet.

That refutes your claim.



No, it isn't.

Life-Expectancy is a function of Life-Style.

The Life-Style of Americans is less conducive to longevity, but that has nothing to do with healthcare.

Canadians are not obese, do not have gangs shooting people in LA, Baltimore, Chicago and elsewhere, do not have an "opioid-crisis" and do not have high suicide rates.
So, you agree, Canada is better. Cool.
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Old 06-09-2019, 11:57 PM
 
4,323 posts, read 879,824 times
Reputation: 2400
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
If anyone actually believes a taxpayer-funded system administered by the federal government will be less expensive than private insurance, I have a bridge to sell you. It's a really NICE bridge.
It's 1/3 cheaper in Canada, and Canadians live longer.
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Old 06-10-2019, 02:32 AM
 
12,842 posts, read 4,640,296 times
Reputation: 5213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyman at Jewel Lake View Post
A for-profit system is for minimizing costs while offering a quality service. Competition drives both factors. A government run system focuses on minimizing effort and increasing the jobs for unaccountable government bureaucrats.
Our for-profit system is the most privatized system in the world and by far the most expensive. "minimizing costs" in a for-profit insurance system doesnt work. The health care industry seek to get every penny from ordinary Americans when they get sick. And "consumers" (desperate sick people") are not rational and informed people in this market. They cant be. The people with all the power in the market are also allowed to price gouge sick people who are in a desperate situation. Of course costs will skyrocket to line the pockets of the medical industrial complex. Wall Street who runs our health care system will always find ways to rip sick people off. And as long as we allow that to happen, the American people will suffer with the most dysfunctional and expensive system in the world.
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Old 06-10-2019, 02:40 AM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,166 posts, read 1,750,098 times
Reputation: 2630
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northman83 View Post
600+ million people in 30+ other 1st world countries are living under a "grueling" taxpayer funded system.
I watched the end of the Canadian Open golf tournament on TV. There were thousands of Canadians in the gallery at Hamilton Golf Club, in walkers, wheelchairs, on O2, and whatnot, too weak to applaud the winner of the tournament, because they were waiting for, or just plain lacked (due to a death panel) health care.

Naw. Like hell there were.

All the golf fans in Canada, at that Canadian golf course, looked to be happy and healthy, and obviously glad to pay to be there (and having been myself a part of the gallery at the Canadian Open golf tourney on the final day, I can attest that the daily ticket, especially on the final day, can be very expensive), and they were obviously not hurting for funds due to taxation. As were the Toronto Raptors' fans who travelled on their own dime, by air and road to Oakland for Game 4 of the Toronto Raptors-Golden State Warriors series. How can Toronto Raptors' fans travel, get hotel rooms, etc., if they are so crippled by taxes in order to pay for healthcare?

For that matter, how can Canadians afford houses, business startups, giant pickup trucks, fifth-wheel campers, cottages, cabins, European and Caribbean and Hawaiian vacations, and household pets? Shouldn't they be forgoing those luxuries; and instead, saving for those, as some Americans would call them, "grueling" taxes?

Canadian taxes are not "grueling." Canadian taxes are reasonable. Canadian taxes are at a level where Canadians can pay them, get health care (among other things), and still have a lot left over for luxuries. I would imagine that it is the same for the people of other First-World democracies, that have single-payer or state-supplied healthcare. Any American who tells another American, "Under single-payer healthcare, your taxes will go up a bazillion percent" is lying to you. Any American who tells another American, "You won't get a choice of doctor or hospital" is lying to you. Any American who tells you, "Your medical records will be in the hands of the federal government," is lying to you. Such things do not happen under single-payer, and I speak from experience. I chose my own doctor, and I would have him up before the medical licensing board on an ethical breach if he tried to share my medical records with any government.

Hell, I can afford to fly business class for pleasure, in spite of the so-called "grueling taxation." I can rent the best cars, and stay at the best hotels for as long as I want. Talk to me again about "grueling taxation," and then tell me how much you pay in taxes, in health insurance premiums, and then at point-of-service in co-pays and deductibles. Then tell me how much disposable income you have left at the end of the year.

Me, I can afford to fly business or first-class, just for fun, in spite of my government's taxes. Americans, can you say the same, in spite of your insurance premiums, co-pays, and deductibles at point of service, in addition to your health insurance deductions off your paycheck?

Last edited by ChevySpoons; 06-10-2019 at 03:34 AM..
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Old 06-10-2019, 03:31 AM
 
11,667 posts, read 3,189,693 times
Reputation: 3971
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChevySpoons View Post
I watched the end of the Canadian Open golf tournament on TV. There were thousands of Canadians in the gallery at Hamilton Golf Club, in walkers, wheelchairs, on O2, and whatnot, too weak to applaud the winner of the tournament, because they were waiting for, or just plain lacked (due to a death panel) health care.

Naw. Like hell there were.

All the golf fans in Canada, at that Canadian golf course, looked to be happy and healthy, and obviously glad to pay to be there (and having been myself a part of the gallery at the Canadian Open golf tourney on the final day, I can attest that the daily ticket, especially on the final day, can be very expensive), and they were obviously not hurting for funds due to taxation. As were the Toronto Raptors' fans who travelled on their own dime, by air and road to Oakland for Game 4 of the Toronto Raptors-Golden State Warriors series. How can Toronto Raptors' fans travel, get hotel rooms, etc., if they are so crippled by taxes in order to pay for healthcare?

For that matter, how can Canadians afford houses, business startups, giant pickup trucks, fifth-wheel campers, cottages, cabins, European and Caribbean and Hawaiian vacations, and household pets? Shouldn't they be forgoing those luxuries; and instead, saving for those, as some Americans would call them, "grueling" taxes?

Canadian taxes are not "grueling." Canadian taxes are reasonable. Canadian taxes are at a level where Canadians can pay them, get health care (among other things), and still have a lot left over for luxuries. I would imagine that it is the same for the people of other First-World democracies, that have single-payer or state-supplied healthcare. Any American who tells another American, "Under single-payer healthcare, your taxes will go up a bazillion percent" is lying to you. Any American who tells another American, "You won't get a choice of doctor or hospital" is lying to you. Any American who tells you, "Your medical records will be in the hands of the federal government," is lying to you.

Hell, I can afford to fly business class for pleasure, in spite of the so-called "grueling taxation." I can rent the best cars, and stay at the best hotels for as long as I want. Talk to me again about "grueling taxation," and then tell me how much you pay in premiums, and then at point-of-service in co-pays and deductibles. Then tell me how much disposable income you have left at the end of the year.

Me, I can afford to fly business or first-class, just for fun, in spite of my government's taxes. Can you, in spite of your insurance premiums, co-pays, and deductibles?
I love Canada and Canadians.

I've spent over 6 months traveling there, and on one trip I drove from Whistler to St. John's, NL and to L'Anse aux Meadows.

What I don't understand (unless one is a snowbird and worried about adequate care being available at their chosen location and thinks UHC might improve that from a facility and personnel standpoint (obviously not from a payment standpoint)) is why Canadians would care, generally, if the U.S. has UHC or not.

If it is re criticism from Americans....why would that upset anyone?

Why would you (collectively) care?

If you're supremely confident that your system is better, why would you what people in any other country...especially one with an inferior system (the U.S.)...think?
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Old 06-10-2019, 04:20 AM
 
Location: Alberta, Canada
2,166 posts, read 1,750,098 times
Reputation: 2630
Quote:
Originally Posted by RMESMH View Post
What I don't understand (unless one is a snowbird and worried about adequate care being available at their chosen location and thinks UHC might improve that from a facility and personnel standpoint (obviously not from a payment standpoint)) is why Canadians would care, generally, if the U.S. has UHC or not.

If it is re criticism from Americans....why would that upset anyone?

Why would you (collectively) care?
First of all, congratulations on taking the time and trouble to cross our land coast-to-coast. It is an extraordinary place, and I am glad that you explored it. I've been coast-to-coast overland too, and I hope you enjoyed your experiences as much as I have!

As to your question, we generally wouldn't care if the US had UHC or single payer or a private insurance model--we wouldn't care, if Americans didn't keep bringing it up, and declaring their private-insurance system as superior, while simultaneously declaring any other country's system as inferior at best, and "socialist" or "communist" at worst. Maybe it's because we're right next door, and our peoples are pretty similar culturally, but we Canadians are constantly told, by Americans on this very forum and others, that our healthcare system is "socialist" (wrong), that we have "death panels" (wrong), and that we are taxed out the wazoo in order to pay for it (wrong). Ironically, the Americans who post such garbage refuse to believe the Canadians who live daily with the Canadian truth.

If Americans don't want us Canadians to speak about American healthcare, then those Americans ought to keep to American healthcare, and stop dragging Canadian healthcare into the debate. If Americans want to debate American provision of healthcare among themselves, fine. But don't drag Canadian healthcare into the debate--if you do, then you will find Canadians participating. And once again, we will be fighting the poster who knows a guy, who knows another guy, whose mother's cousin's brother knows a guy, who knows another guy, who spent a weekend in Canada, and who talked to a guy at the bar who had an ingrown toenail, and had to wait six hours to have it seen to. Six whole hours, a story which is based on nothing but hearsay. And like the game of "Broken Telephone," only gets more weird as it progresses. Can you see what we put up with?

Quote:
If you're supremely confident that your system is better, why would you what people in any other country...especially one with an inferior system (the U.S.)...think?
Our system isn't better, and I'm the first to say that. But when it comes to the US system, our system is different. It certainly is not socialist, contrary to what many Americans think--how can it be socialist when physicians are self-employed, and hospitals are private, non-profit corporations?.

If our system is better, it is better because we do not allow denial of claims. The physician submits a claim to the single-payer government insurer, and the government pays it, no questions asked. No claims adjusters nor any denial, under any circumstances.

Last edited by ChevySpoons; 06-10-2019 at 04:38 AM..
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