U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-08-2019, 02:56 PM
 
Location: CA
4,280 posts, read 1,846,213 times
Reputation: 5517

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
That would be the textbook and generally accepted definition among economists and political scientists: 'collective ownership of the means of production.' My only caveat is that in practice 'collective' invariably means 'government.' I suspect OP can offer 2 or 3 short-lived examples where 'collective' did not necessarily translate to 'government.' The overwhelming majority, from the old USSR to Cuba to Venezuela, did.
You used the word "collective" (which as you pointed out, really means government), but the OP used the word "workers". That's the key difference.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-08-2019, 03:06 PM
Status: "think locally, act yokelly." (set 25 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,315 posts, read 583,870 times
Reputation: 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by neko_mimi View Post
You used the word "collective" (which as you pointed out, really means government), but the OP used the word "workers". That's the key difference.
All well and good; at least you do know the definition, unlike most Americans. I would argue that 'collective' vs 'government' vs. 'workers' is just semantics.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 03:31 PM
 
Location: CA
4,280 posts, read 1,846,213 times
Reputation: 5517
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
All well and good; at least you do know the definition, unlike most Americans. I would argue that 'collective' vs 'government' vs. 'workers' is just semantics.
I actually disagree with this point. This is my venn diagram view of those categories.


I won't argue about "collective" vs "government" in this context, but I believe the use of the word "workers" here is intentionally disingenuous. Because, in reality, the people doing the actual work have no control over the means of production in socialism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 03:33 PM
 
3,615 posts, read 1,204,809 times
Reputation: 2361
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
Thanks for your link; I scanned it but don't see any money quotes where the writer confirms her interpretation of Sanders' beliefs. I think Sanders fuzzes the difference between 'socialism' and 'social democracy' (the Scandi model) for propaganda reasons.

Sanders has been in this game for a long time, and I refuse to believe that he is just ignorant of the difference. The Danish PM famously upbraided him for repeatedly referencing Denmark as 'socialist.' Bernie knows exactly what he's doing.
He continues to use the label 'socialist' because that is what he really believes.
Agreed with the bolded.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Toronto, ON
2,091 posts, read 1,458,410 times
Reputation: 1420
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
Sanders has been in this game for a long time, and I refuse to believe that he is just ignorant of the difference. The Danish PM famously upbraided him for repeatedly referencing Denmark as 'socialist.' Bernie knows exactly what he's doing. He continues to use the label 'socialist' because that is what he really believes.
I suspect he uses it as a tactic to leapfrog any accusations that he is a "socialist". Maybe because there is a political party called "Democrat" that maybe somehow a "social democrat" would be interpreted by most voters as a "socialist Democrat"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 04:06 PM
 
Location: PSL
8,231 posts, read 2,203,274 times
Reputation: 2936
Quote:
Originally Posted by neko_mimi View Post
I actually disagree with this point. This is my venn diagram view of those categories.


I won't argue about "collective" vs "government" in this context, but I believe the use of the word "workers" here is intentionally disingenuous. Because, in reality, the people doing the actual work have no control over the means of production in socialism.
I've told the commie that started this thread to quit their 9-5 and go get in to a trade that pays based upon productivity.
Like flat rate auto technician. Or piece rate construction.

When they get out there in reality and have to self fund 10s of thousands to 100s of thousands of dollars of tools to simply maintain their career... they will change their tune real quick when they get a job that doesn't pay well and can't knock it out fast enough to break even or profit from...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 04:35 PM
 
3,615 posts, read 1,204,809 times
Reputation: 2361
Quote:
Originally Posted by zortation View Post
I suspect he uses it as a tactic to leapfrog any accusations that he is a "socialist". Maybe because there is a political party called "Democrat" that maybe somehow a "social democrat" would be interpreted by most voters as a "socialist Democrat"?
That's my assumption as well.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 05:02 PM
 
Location: 130 Miles E of Sacramento
5,464 posts, read 3,298,653 times
Reputation: 3638
Bernie hates capitalism and wants to get rid of it, in favor of socialism.

The problem is, where is he going to get money when less wealth is being created?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 05:54 PM
 
2,777 posts, read 1,015,071 times
Reputation: 1770
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaig...atic-socialism


We'll see if he is a real socialist who wants workers to control the means of production.


Most Americans are far right and think privatizing public schools and air traffic control are moderate positions. So I doubt it will end well for him.
Bernie wouldn't be considered left in Europe.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-08-2019, 05:56 PM
 
3,615 posts, read 1,204,809 times
Reputation: 2361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milky Way Resident View Post
Bernie wouldn't be considered left in Europe.
True.

On a global scale, Bernie is a centrist.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top