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Old 06-09-2019, 11:41 AM
 
11,463 posts, read 8,446,823 times
Reputation: 7091

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Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
And all of this is why I'm not a Goldwater supporter. 1964 was the watershed year. The Civil Rights Act was needed. One of the things many people will never admit that as things like the Voting Rights Act and the Civil Rights Act got passed, more conservative Democrats started trickling into the Republican Party. At first many went to vote for George Wallace in 1968, but the mid 1960s, that was a watershed time.
I never fully understood the Goldwater position on civil rights. I did hear him say for a business to turn away any paying customer was not good for the business. And he was a minimum federal government, states rights person.

I liked him for his anti war pro environment position. And at the time he ran, the civil rights act and voting rights was going to happen.

How many churches can bigots blow up killing little girls before the rest of the country gets pissed off? We still have that Rockwell picture of Ruby Bridges and the Marshalls. It reminds us daily of how truly stupid and mean some of us are.

The whole world was watching.
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Old 06-09-2019, 12:15 PM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 15 days ago)
 
48,230 posts, read 45,519,102 times
Reputation: 15345
Quote:
Originally Posted by crone View Post
I never fully understood the Goldwater position on civil rights. I did hear him say for a business to turn away any paying customer was not good for the business. And he was a minimum federal government, states rights person.

I liked him for his anti war pro environment position. And at the time he ran, the civil rights act and voting rights was going to happen.

How many churches can bigots blow up killing little girls before the rest of the country gets pissed off? We still have that Rockwell picture of Ruby Bridges and the Marshalls. It reminds us daily of how truly stupid and mean some of us are.

The whole world was watching.
This is my position. Businesses were able to get away with turning potential customers away based on race, for a very long time. And many people supported that. Goldwater arguing that money would solve the problem went counter to what was going on. There are some cases where force is necessary.

Sometimes you have to vote based on survival. Goldwater didn't support the Civil Rights Act or the Voting Rights Act. For a race of people who depend on those things, it won't be easily forgotten, and survival is going to come first. Environmental issues are important, as Black people, relative to other group, have a high chance of living in some environmentally unsound areas. However, with things like voting rights and civil rights, one has to pick their battle. Survival.

Many people were getting angry at the churches getting bombed and little kids getting killed. It was a shock. That stuff would have angered many. At the same time, there were so many problems happening in people's backyards. The South had some of the worst stuff taking place in the country. However, it wasn't limited there.

As for Jim Crow, there are things the free market can't solve. Some things, force is necessary. The South wouldn't give up slavery until it was brought to its knees by war and destruction. The South wouldn't give up Jim Crow until civil disobedience, fighting back, and the federal goverment were used. It took force. To say that it would have eventually happened isn't good enough. Some things need to be forced. You can't just wait.
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Old 06-09-2019, 01:44 PM
 
11,463 posts, read 8,446,823 times
Reputation: 7091
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
This is my position. Businesses were able to get away with turning potential customers away based on race, for a very long time. And many people supported that. Goldwater arguing that money would solve the problem went counter to what was going on. There are some cases where force is necessary.

Sometimes you have to vote based on survival. Goldwater didn't support the Civil Rights Act or the Voting Rights Act. For a race of people who depend on those things, it won't be easily forgotten, and survival is going to come first. Environmental issues are important, as Black people, relative to other group, have a high chance of living in some environmentally unsound areas. However, with things like voting rights and civil rights, one has to pick their battle. Survival.

Many people were getting angry at the churches getting bombed and little kids getting killed. It was a shock. That stuff would have angered many. At the same time, there were so many problems happening in people's backyards. The South had some of the worst stuff taking place in the country. However, it wasn't limited there.

As for Jim Crow, there are things the free market can't solve. Some things, force is necessary. The South wouldn't give up slavery until it was brought to its knees by war and destruction. The South wouldn't give up Jim Crow until civil disobedience, fighting back, and the federal goverment were used. It took force. To say that it would have eventually happened isn't good enough. Some things need to be forced. You can't just wait.
I hear that.
We moved from east Texas to the civilized town of Webster Groves Mo back in those days. It was the first time I ever saw a neighborhood collect the cash to buy a house in the middle of the night. The agent told the listing agent a black family had written a contract on a house. She was to get it to the contract in the morning. The listing agent alerted the lister and the neighborhood. That house was sold for cash that night.

Also, instead of paying a poll tax, a person who wanted to join the township to be able to participate in local primary politics had to pay a $20 fee to the township chairperson. She didn't like my southern accent so was never available to receive my fee.
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Old 06-09-2019, 02:54 PM
 
9,483 posts, read 2,334,103 times
Reputation: 4690
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Not true.

Democrats love racism in their own party. What do you think identity politics is?

Republicans universally denounce racism.
That does not match the Republican Party I knew growing up around Chicago. They exploited race whenever they saw an advantage to it, which was quite a bit.

My uncle as a lifelong Republican ran for congress then, and I was treated to an up front and personal display of it by the people and campaigns all over the city.

"Epton for mayor... Before it's too late"
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Old 06-09-2019, 04:30 PM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 15 days ago)
 
48,230 posts, read 45,519,102 times
Reputation: 15345
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifeexplorer View Post
Not true.

Democrats love racism in their own party. What do you think identity politics is?

Republicans universally denounce racism.
Really?

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/loc...145327079.html

https://www.ajc.com/news/local-govt-...jij3peheLma1H/
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Old 06-09-2019, 04:33 PM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 15 days ago)
 
48,230 posts, read 45,519,102 times
Reputation: 15345
Quote:
Originally Posted by crone View Post
I hear that.
We moved from east Texas to the civilized town of Webster Groves Mo back in those days. It was the first time I ever saw a neighborhood collect the cash to buy a house in the middle of the night. The agent told the listing agent a black family had written a contract on a house. She was to get it to the contract in the morning. The listing agent alerted the lister and the neighborhood. That house was sold for cash that night.

Also, instead of paying a poll tax, a person who wanted to join the township to be able to participate in local primary politics had to pay a $20 fee to the township chairperson. She didn't like my southern accent so was never available to receive my fee.
The irony is that Webster Groves is now close to 7% Black. Black Americans that could afford to buy houses there are doing so.

End the end of the day, people are going to do what they feel will help them get a better life for themselves. This is why the Black vote has been heavily skewed towards the Democratic Party for the last 50 years. The Democratic and Republican Parties have changed over the last 50-60 years.
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:16 PM
Status: "think locally, act yokelly." (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,377 posts, read 593,852 times
Reputation: 1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
The antebellum Democrat party of slavery was decisively defeated in the Civil War, never to rise again.

After that, there were two Democrat parties... FDR would go on to complete the metamorphosis of the Democrats from the party of southern farmers to the party of urban immigrants....So when people go on to say that, "Democrats are the party of slavery", it's just wrong. The party of slavery is dead, and hasn't been more than a regional force for 100 years...
There remained a strong alliance between southern segregationist democrats and northern democrats up until around the time of LBJ. The 'Southern Manifesto' of 1956, demanding continuation of school segregation, was signed by 99 Southern Democrats and 2 Virginia Republicans.

FDR was strongly allied with the segregationists. Many aspects of the New Deal were crafted to exclude blacks in order to gain support of segregationists.
https://www.seattletimes.com/enterta...gregationists/

Quote:
bills were shaped so as not to threaten Jim Crow. Millions of farmworkers, the majority of whom in the South were black, were excluded from the protections of the National Labor Relations Act of 1935 (guaranteeing workers’ right to unionize) and the Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (establishing a federal minimum wage and limiting working hours). Along with maids and other domestic servants, farmworkers also were left out of Social Security.
So it is flatly wrong to claim that FDR completed a 'metamorphosis.'
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:23 PM
 
Location: San Diego
5,071 posts, read 1,392,079 times
Reputation: 3654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
The antebellum Democrat party of slavery was decisively defeated in the Civil War, never to rise again.

After that, there were two Democrat parties, a northern version and a rump southern version. The southern version was a continuation of the Jefferson-Jackson party, while the northern version was something entirely new: the party of people who had immigrated to the US after independence.

Then the new Democrat party took control, and nominated northern Irish Catholic Al Smith. He also lost spectacularly, but FDR would go on to complete the metamorphosis of the Democrats from the party of southern farmers to the party of urban immigrants. The rest is history. The southern Democrat party well and truly died in the 2014 midterm election, when Republicans swept southern Senate seats and statewide offices.

So when people go on to say that, "Democrats are the party of slavery", it's just wrong. The party of slavery is dead, and hasn't been more than a regional force for 100 years. There were two Democrat parties for 150 years, who shared little more than a name and would only sometimes unite to be effective. The Democrat party of today is the party of urban immigrants and the North.
A remarkable series of assertions. Without the slightest proof or evidence, of course.

The Democrats of today (all of them) are the party that continues to legislate based on the idea that blacks and other minorities can't make it in the world, without massive government assistance; while they never see a need to make such allowances for whites. Not hard to figure out which race they regard as "inferior" and needing of help.

They also remain the overwhelming majority of members and high officials of the Ku Klux Klan, as they have been from its inception.

It's getting tiresome to hear the 743rd attempt by Democrats to point to the racism in the Democrat party, from yesteryear through today, and splutter, "But, but, but... uh.... those weren't REALLY Democrats!"
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Old 06-10-2019, 01:56 PM
 
10,780 posts, read 13,685,993 times
Reputation: 6289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboteer View Post
A remarkable series of assertions. Without the slightest proof or evidence, of course.

The Democrats of today (all of them) are the party that continues to legislate based on the idea that blacks and other minorities can't make it in the world, without massive government assistance; while they never see a need to make such allowances for whites. Not hard to figure out which race they regard as "inferior" and needing of help.

They also remain the overwhelming majority of members and high officials of the Ku Klux Klan, as they have been from its inception.

It's getting tiresome to hear the 743rd attempt by Democrats to point to the racism in the Democrat party, from yesteryear through today, and splutter, "But, but, but... uh.... those weren't REALLY Democrats!"
It's getting tiresome to hear the 743rd attempt by right wingers to equate Democrats with racism to deflect from their own obvious tendencies.

9 times out of 10 these type of ridiculous threads are started by right wingers. Dinesh D'sousa made an entire movie with the goal of tricking black people into voting GOP. Around that time there seemed to be weekly threads pushing this same narrative "vote GOP because the racists used to be in the Democratic Party".


It DOESN'T WORK.
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Old 06-10-2019, 02:01 PM
Status: "think locally, act yokelly." (set 27 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,377 posts, read 593,852 times
Reputation: 1028
I argue that there is an ongoing attempt to revive the Democratic party as the party of racism and segregation, but in a new and different form. I call it 'crypto racism.' It's the effort, via ID politics, to divide Americans into disparate racial groups. I quote one more time from US Rep. Danny K. Davis (D, IL), when a Chicago mayoral election turned into a contest between whites, blacks, and Latinos (all Democrat, of course):

https://www.thedailybeast.com/rahm-e...yoral-campaign
Quote:
Davis said it was “just kind of natural” for people to rally behind a candidate of their own color or ethnicity. He drew an example from his boyhood on a farm in Arkansas. “When I went into the barnyard,” he explained later during an interview, “I never saw a chicken leading a group of turkeys.”
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