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Old 06-12-2019, 11:23 AM
 
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,324 posts, read 14,041,763 times
Reputation: 6504

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Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I'm saying we should be more than "leaning" toward universal healthcare like just about every other modern advanced country adopted a long time ago!
and most (including republicans) would be if the left could answer two questions, honestly.


1. we want a guarantee about the quality of care... we have seen the dept of health horror clinics, and how screwed up the VA is... can we get that promise


2. where is the money (about 6 trillion annually for true singlepayer) going to come from?

 
Old 06-12-2019, 11:42 AM
 
12,687 posts, read 3,222,369 times
Reputation: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
and most (including republicans) would be if the left could answer two questions, honestly.

1. we want a guarantee about the quality of care... we have seen the dept of health horror clinics, and how screwed up the VA is... can we get that promise

2. where is the money (about 6 trillion annually for true singlepayer) going to come from?
I've got to sign off now. Good questions, but not just for conservatives, right? We all want affordable quality health care. We all want real promises, guarantees, but how are they possible? Up to just the Democrats? After what the Republicans did with the ACA? Please...

1. We all want a guarantee along these lines, but let's not get our hopes up TOO much that either party can guarantee the likes. At best it seems to me, we vote for what seems the best direction and chance to get there, and make the adjustments as inevitably necessary along the way. Of course. Like we should finally be doing with the ACA rather than going backwards.

When did the VA provide our vets that kind of quality medical care? During what administration? What do we have now? More importantly, how do we get there going forward? Where is the Republican plan? Let alone the promise? Guarantee?

2. Where is the money to pay for the crappy system we're relying on now? Where is the money to pay the ongoing increased cost of medical attention and drugs? How is our money better utilized by way of universal coverage, just like all insurance tends to work? What are the opportunities to reduce health care costs? How are they most likely achieved?

Where does the money come from? Not sure anyone has a clear handle on the total costs, either under-estimated or exaggerated. Not sure about "6 trillion" either (you didn't provide a source for that number), but maybe the question is answered the same way we pay the cost to maintain our military?

About 17 percent of America's $4 trillion federal budget goes to the military, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ab72c430b868

Or are we asking the right questions? All of them?

Last edited by LearnMe; 06-12-2019 at 12:06 PM..
 
Old 06-12-2019, 11:47 AM
 
Location: in my imagination
11,400 posts, read 18,603,087 times
Reputation: 7934
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Until Trump supporters can better understand the real pro/con trade-offs and costs associated with issues like health care coverage, and until the facts and rationale are not misrepresented at every turn, Trump's chances for re-election do tend to be better than they should be.

Your question is something like whether you do or don't beat your wife often? Well do you or don't you?!?
Sometimes it just comes down to right or wrong. Most view it as a slap in the face when democrats give free stuff to illegal immigrants while penalizing legal citizens. If I am ever in line at a checkout with you if I just skip past you to the front how you gonna feel about it? What if a person of color did that you and then said you are racist if you complain about it?

Even on the democratic underground forum a haven for the left of the leftists the view is split on it.

https://www.democraticunderground.co...2326856#post15
 
Old 06-12-2019, 11:59 AM
 
191 posts, read 140,048 times
Reputation: 156
Its great to hear all sides of this. We need to educate ourselves on all the issues and vote in 2020 accordingly. The more informed we are and look at all sides collectively we work better than our current system who cannot seem to work together except pointing the finger at one another. I appreciate hearing all views of the undocumented crisis at the border. Healthcare is a very important topic and especially too we have baby boomers retiring with much less money - if it wasn't for the healthcare exchange a lot of us could not afford a doctor visit due to a pre-existing condition or just not being able to afford the cost.
 
Old 06-12-2019, 12:01 PM
 
12,687 posts, read 3,222,369 times
Reputation: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by lionking View Post
Sometimes it just comes down to right or wrong. Most view it as a slap in the face when democrats give free stuff to illegal immigrants while penalizing legal citizens. If I am ever in line at a checkout with you if I just skip past you to the front how you gonna feel about it? What if a person of color did that you and then said you are racist if you complain about it?

Even on the democratic underground forum a haven for the left of the leftists the view is split on it.

https://www.democraticunderground.co...2326856#post15
Really do need to sign off now, but before I do, your comment highlights a real big challenge to better understanding at the most fundamental level, again having to do with a belief and/or perspective that can't seem to avoid misrepresenting the actual issue(s) at hand...

I live in California, and I have paid more taxes in my day than most people make in a life time. Not all the taxes state or federal is spent exactly as I would approve, but I have NEVER felt that I'm paying for "free stuff" or "penalizing legal citizens." Right there is clear evidence you are not looking at these issues objectively!

Even worse you compare this to someone skipping past me in line? Fact is a bunch of kids tried doing that in a long line at a concert some years ago, and I seemed to be the only one willing to stop them in their tracks! Throw this in about the POC, and I'm a bit at a loss. These sorts of analogies are borderline shameless when instead we really do need to better understand the REAL rationale from all sides. Try anyway!

Did you read my comment #120? Maybe since I've got to sign off now, I'll leave it at that for now. Cheers...
 
Old 06-12-2019, 12:18 PM
 
191 posts, read 140,048 times
Reputation: 156
I have a brother that lives in one of the countries that has universal healthcare. You have to wait sometimes months to get a surgery unless it is life threatening. He pays thru a tax on his pay check so it is really not free. If you are a low earner there are exceptions. Your regular doctor visits are covered but if you have to see a specialist you are responsible for about 25% of cost. This is why he buys supplemental policy to cover that cost but some cannot afford it so they have to pay out of pocket. Also, depending where you go to hospital the costs may be covered or you may be responsible for 25% of costs. Dental, eye doctor and ambulance are not covered so you have to get separate policy you pay for. Some citizens who have money will come to the US from his country to get medical care here so they don't have to be on a waiting list. His countrie does not cover undocumented people under their healthcare. But if you have a permanent visa or are on a work related visa you will be covered. In my personal opinion I don't agree with giving away free health insurance to undocumented but I do agree that they should be able to purchase a policy based on their income with state subsidies if the state wishes to offer them. When they become legal citizens then they can take advantage of the Healthcare offered. I don't think the healthcare should be given away at no cost to them though, unless like the other countries they are here on a permanent visa or work related. I do not agree that the Federal Govt should have to pay for undocumented insurance. If the individual state wants to pay that is up to them but Federal taxpayer dollars should not be used.

Last edited by ClassicCarFamily; 06-12-2019 at 12:38 PM..
 
Old 06-12-2019, 12:20 PM
 
5,162 posts, read 1,424,627 times
Reputation: 3195
Let California do as they wish. What they don't understand is a basic law of nature - people are self-interested and if the state is going to guarantee free healthcare to illegals, more illegals will come, putting more strain on the system.

This, my friends, is the one and only thing that truly differentiates a liberal from a conservative.
 
Old 06-12-2019, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Houston, TX
14,697 posts, read 8,483,912 times
Reputation: 29394
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
I don't believe in Jesus, but if I did....now would be a good time for him to come back and save us from leftists.
It's obvious you don't believe in Jesus. Jesus was a leftist.
 
Old 06-12-2019, 12:33 PM
 
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,324 posts, read 14,041,763 times
Reputation: 6504
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
I've got to sign off now. Good questions, but not just for conservatives, right? We all want affordable quality health care. We all want real promises, guarantees, but how are they possible? Up to just the Democrats? After what the Republicans did with the ACA? Please...

1. We all want a guarantee along these lines, but let's not get our hopes up TOO much that either party can guarantee the likes. At best it seems to me, we vote for what seems the best direction and chance to get there, and make the adjustments as inevitably necessary along the way. Of course. Like we should finally be doing with the ACA rather than going backwards.

When did the VA provide our vets that kind of quality medical care? During what administration? What do we have now? More importantly, how do we get there going forward? Where is the Republican plan? Let alone the promise? Guarantee?

2. Where is the money to pay for the crappy system we're relying on now? Where is the money to pay the ongoing increased cost of medical attention and drugs? How is our money better utilized by way of universal coverage, just like all insurance tends to work? What are the opportunities to reduce health care costs? How are they most likely achieved?

Where does the money come from? Not sure anyone has a clear handle on the total costs, either under-estimated or exaggerated. Not sure about "6 trillion" either (you didn't provide a source for that number), but maybe the question is answered the same way we pay the cost to maintain our military?

About 17 percent of America's $4 trillion federal budget goes to the military, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.ab72c430b868

Or are we asking the right questions? All of them?


Iwould be happy with it...but not with knowing the math


Medicare For All (MAF) (based on what medicare is currently) will not cover long term care (like nursing homes) and will cost about 3.5 trillion annually (per sanders himself) to cover 330million people (and a population that is increasing/ rising)


MFA (with no deductibles/copays) will cost about 4.75- 4.95 trillion annually


full coverage singlepayer (including long term care) will cost 6.5-7 trillion annually to cover 330million citizens (plus what ever illegals and normal growth)




when you look at federal taxes (per the IRS) there are about 150 million FILERS, and of that about 45% have a zero or negative tax liability...which means there are only about 80 million tax PAYERS


so when you take the 3.5t/4.75t/6.5-7 trillion ANNUAL cost and divide them by 80m (number of taxpayers


you get:
3.5t / 80m = 43k per taxpayer
4.75t / 80m = 59.3k
6.5t / 80m = 81.2k




I don't know about you...but the median household making 63,000 is not going to be able to afford a tax bill of 81k or 59k or 43k
 
Old 06-12-2019, 12:37 PM
 
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,324 posts, read 14,041,763 times
Reputation: 6504
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
It's obvious you don't believe in Jesus. Jesus was a leftist.

nope jesus was anti-modern leftist


leftists want cradle to grave entitlements....(giving a man a fish daily)


jesus was about self responsibility ... Give a Man a Fish, and You Feed Him for a Day. Teach a Man To Fish, and You Feed Him for a Lifetime
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