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Old 06-12-2019, 07:32 AM
 
Location: DFW
550 posts, read 153,834 times
Reputation: 869

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MnM258 View Post
As an outsider looking in on US politics it seems that neither side really WANTS to understand the other, it has become very polarised with people going to extreme lengths to put down the other side without any notion of compromise or trying to understand where people they disagree with are coming from. I don't think it was always that way, even if you look back to presidential debates in the Reagan era they seemed much more civilised and respectful. Is that a real thing in general live or does it just seem that way because of online media including this forum that encourages people to think and act that way? Are most folks in general life away from the Internet as riled up about 'the enemy' on the other side as they seem to be on forums like this?

It seems to be going the same way in my country the UK when you look at online activity, especially with the Brexit debate, but in real life away from the Internet it is still more reasonable and understanding, most people are not extremists for one side or the other. Is that the same in the US?
Thank you for becoming part of this discussion.
Yes, things have strayed from the moderate, from the respectful, from the cohesive. I believe this had to happen, and these "growing pains" we are having are similar to yours in GB, as you stated.

My perspective: Someone came in and said and did a whole bunch of horrible stuff. When suddenly there was support for that horrible stuff, others were shocked that such hated existed still, and therefore came out and stated what they always assumed was true (it wasn't, apparently). The differences were brought to the surface, whereas previously, there was not cause to even discuss them.

Let's use one issue as an example. Say you and I are friends and I am anti-abortion and you are pro-abortion. This is a subject that does not readily come up over a Starbucks. Therefore, I assume that if you are my friend, and from what I can gather a good person, you are OBVIOUSLY anti, just like me, why even question it? Meanwhile, you figure if I am your friend, and presumably a good person, I am OBVIOUSLY pro just like you, why even question it?

Suddenly someone raised the question.

I sadly believe that it will get uglier for us before it gets prettier again.

I'm thinking about becoming a flight attendant for SwissAir- LOL!
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:17 AM
 
12,626 posts, read 3,210,262 times
Reputation: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by green_mariner View Post
This is my background. I come from a middle class Black family. My parents are what you would call "liberal", well, in some cases. There are issues they are conservative on, mostly for religious reasons. However, I come from a family of Democrats. I've become more independent in my views. I don't classify myself as a liberal or a conservative. However, I do have an understanding when it comes to conservatives. What I know regarding conservatives doesn't come from what I watch on television or what politicians tell me. What I know comes from growing up in a predominantly White, conservative area in Georgia, which is also a red state, with its own nuances. What I know comes from actually living around conservatives, both when I was in high school, and in college.

Now, had I lived outside of the southeast, I might have seen different things. But one thing I've learned is that there are many nuances. When I was in college, I ran into many conservatives who came from middle-upper class homes. Middle upper class conservatives were certainly different from many working class conservatives that I've been around. One major issue I remember in Georgia during 2000-2001 was over the state flag. Up until 2000, the Confederate flag was featured prominently on the state's flag. Being a Black person, and having learned about what the Confederate cause was, I grew to have a strong hatred for the Confederate (I have an even stronger hatred for it today). I noticed something else. The persons who were the most adamant supporters for the Confederate flag, were persons who happened to be White, working class, and conservative. I never saw this adamant support from middle upper class White conservative individuals. There seemed to be an indifference towards the issue.

Some things in common: I also among both kinds of conservatives, they agreed on being pro-life, belief that marriage is between a man and a woman, and tended to support issues that were more in line with the religious right. This is among those who were church-going persons.

One thing I did notice is this. With many working class conservatives I've been around, one major mentality I've noticed is a kind of "siege" mentality. This feeling of "we're all under siege". I haven't seen it as much from middle upper class conservatives. The most ardent Trump supporters I've seen have been among the working class. This is what I've noticed.

When it comes to race, this is where things get rather murky. I've met maybe 2 or 3 Black people in my life who identified as conservative. All of them were more or less religious conservatives. I remember meeting more Asians or Hispanic persons who were conservative. I've never seen any Black person wear a MAGA hat, not in public. Actually, the only persons I've seen wear MAGA hats are White conservatives, mainly men. I've seen maybe one or two women with a MAGA hat. As far as race relations go, this has varied alot. And before anyone tries to flip this on me, I will preface this by saying that, no, not every conservative is a racist. I'm simply stating what I have personally experience. This does not reflect every conservative out there. This is what I experienced growing up. There were certainly conservative persons that were not racist. And I've run into so-called liberals did have a racist mindset. However, in my experiences, the persons who called me the "N" word the most, the persons who were the most "in my face" with their disdain for Blacks, they were often conservative. Now, I'm speaking of what I experienced where I lived. Had I lived in California, New York, Florida, Michigan, Indiana, Ohio, etc, it might have been a different experience.

My perspective comes from being in situations where I've often been the odd man out. It comes from my personal life experiences. I've learned that many conservatives are going to look out for their own interests, just as liberals, and pretty much any group will. I also know there are nuances when it comes to conservatives. I know people who adamantly supported Bush, but can't stand Trump. I know a guy who was a conservative, and then Trump came along. He voted for Gary Johnson. There are alot of nuances. I can speak for what I have been around and experienced. I know that where I currently live, I'm around many staunch Trump supporters based bumper stickers, MAGA hats, and other things I've seen around me. I understand conservatives more that someone would give me credit for. I live in a conservative area and I'm around them. This is my understanding. Many conservatives do not like change.
Nice post. Reads awfully accurate in general though based on your personal experience and observations (similar to mine as I have also interacted with many liberals and conservatives, in this forum too). I'm not sure there is much of anything you write that's hard to accept as the truth in general, including the reasons provided for the varying behavior across the political spectrum. There is most definitely a "we're under siege" mentality among many conservatives, largely because old ways of thinking are constantly "under siege" with each new generation.

Last edited by LearnMe; 06-12-2019 at 09:59 AM..
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:27 AM
 
12,626 posts, read 3,210,262 times
Reputation: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
As do I. Conservatives tend to think with logic not emotion like most liberals do. I think most conservatists are realists instead of living in some fantasy world as liberals do. We also respect the rule of law, our borders and soveirgnty as a nation. Liberals seem to think we should open our borders to all that want to come here even if they are a burden to our society. Most conservatives have old fashioned values not these silly so-called progressive values.
But...

What about when people express notions like yours that really don't demonstrate too much in the way of "critical thinking" all considered? To suggest conservatives use logic while liberals rely on emotion is simply daft and obviously to ignore the emotions that conservatives have about their political and religious beliefs.

I lean far more liberal than conservative by just about every measure. To suggest I am in a "fantasy world" rather than the pragmatist I am better known to be, and to suggest I don't respect the rule of law or our borders and sovereignty is simply hogwash. No different than someone suggesting that conservatives are racist who don't respect the civil rights of others.

Your comment simply demonstrates one REAL problem when it comes to far too many conservatives; the complete misunderstanding of opinion different from theirs, and the never-ending effort to misrepresent it with this same sort of dumbed-down rhetoric.

So what do you do when one man's "critical thinking" is another man's nonsense?

More insults to one's intelligence?
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:35 AM
 
12,626 posts, read 3,210,262 times
Reputation: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
Many of us conservatives think that abortion should be for certain circumstances not just on demand and in not for late term pregnancies unless the mother's life is in danger. We are for both women and men acting responsibly before engaging in sex by using birth control. Seems reasonable to me.

What's wrong with building a wall on the border where it is feasible especially since those in place already have been very effective in reducing illegal entry? Seems reasonable to me.

We aren't for stopping Muslim immigrants from coming here unless they are the radical type. However, we don't always know if they are or aren't. We just have to be cautious with immigrants from known terrorists countries. Seems reasonable to me.
Many of us liberals think abortion should be a matter decided by the woman, not others. Seems reasonable to me.

What's wrong with building a UUGE 30 foot concrete wall when less ridiculous, obnoxious expensive walls in place already have been very effective? Trump's wall seems about as reasonable to me as expecting Mexico to pay for it.

We aren't for stopping Muslim immigrants from coming here...? Which conservatives are you speaking for?
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:40 AM
 
12,626 posts, read 3,210,262 times
Reputation: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oldglory View Post
All politicians have skeletons in their closet. What Trump did in the past does not gauge his ability to lead. He's in a marriage now that seems to be lasting. I don't care about personality but policy. The latter is what will cause us to sink or swim.
I wish it were only what Trump has done in the past or that it was just Trump's obnoxious personality, but it's far more than that...

What will also cause us to "sink or swim" is how well we Americans can see the whole picture that is Trump including what to give Trump credit for doing, legitimate criticism as appropriate too, and the intelligence to know the difference.
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Old 06-12-2019, 09:41 AM
 
7,174 posts, read 1,602,621 times
Reputation: 3864
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
As the libs try to figure out Trump and are becoming increasingly deranged they prove the premise. The Trump base runs in the background untouched by the lamestream media and the imitation wonks in print media as well. The major failure of conservatism so far is our failure to put arch constitutionalists/patriots in the educational pipeline in the 60's when leftist nut cases were everywhere. They have now harvested a crop of witless snowflakes who are twisted in every way. Eco freaks and tree huggers who get a sense of worth from recycling, rather than understanding the brilliance of our founding fathers and the constitution. As the USA was setup to prosper with self sustaining capitalist citizens who don't need to rely on government, it's probably not going to end well.
You said it, so it must be true.

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Old 06-12-2019, 09:45 AM
 
12,626 posts, read 3,210,262 times
Reputation: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fleura123 View Post
Yes. Absolutely. While there are some open-minded liberals out there, most aren't IMHO. They are very quick to label you as a "racist" or a "bigot" if you disagree with them. Which tends to end the discussion right there.
I know conservatives who can't even talk about politics because they get too emotional if/when you don't agree with them entirely...

That said, another mistake by all is to base our assumptions on personal experience rather than know there are nitwits on both sides just like there are better reasoned people on both sides. It's our bias that tilts the scales of our opinion regarding those who have opinion different from ours.
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:00 AM
Status: "I hate living in Georgia!!" (set 8 days ago)
 
47,986 posts, read 45,443,916 times
Reputation: 15310
Quote:
Originally Posted by LearnMe View Post
Nice post. Reads awfully accurate in general though based on your personal experience and observations (similar to mine as I have also interacted with many liberals and conservatives, in this forum too). I'm not sure there is much of anything you write that's hard to accept as the truth in general, including the reasons provided for the varying behavior across the political spectrum. There is most definitely a 'we're under siege" mentality among many conservatives, largely because old ways of thinking are constantly "under siege" with each new generation.
I just wanted to speak about personal experiences. What I know of conservatives comes from personal experiences. Most of what I've learned comes from what I read, and what I've experienced.

This is thing. Some people aren't going to like what I have to say. It's going to be seen as an attack.

I think about the siege mentality. That is one element I've wanted to discuss. One reason I brought up the Confederate flag issue. This issue illustrates the cultural polarization I saw. I saw a big siege mentality. It was mostly conservatives getting in arms over the situation. However, even with that in mind, not every conservative was upset. There are some nuances. I never saw any middle upper class conservatives get mad. The persons who were the most upset were more of the "NASCAR Republicans", working class conservatives. However, at the end of the day, there are alot of rifts, ideological, and racial.

There were certainly those who didn't want change. And it manifested itself in a siege mentality.
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Kenmore, WA
7,491 posts, read 6,472,992 times
Reputation: 10926
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vf6cruiser View Post
As the libs try to figure out Trump and are becoming increasingly deranged they prove the premise. The Trump base runs in the background untouched by the lamestream media and the imitation wonks in print media as well. The major failure of conservatism so far is our failure to put arch constitutionalists/patriots in the educational pipeline in the 60's when leftist nut cases were everywhere. They have now harvested a crop of witless snowflakes who are twisted in every way. Eco freaks and tree huggers who get a sense of worth from recycling, rather than understanding the brilliance of our founding fathers and the constitution. As the USA was setup to prosper with self sustaining capitalist citizens who don't need to rely on government, it's probably not going to end well.
I think you spend too much time in your own exhaust. Aside from that, as far as I can tell from this post, you know nothing about what anyone else thinks because you spend too much time stewing in your own spew. (See point one.)
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Old 06-12-2019, 10:25 AM
 
12,626 posts, read 3,210,262 times
Reputation: 1567
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Grasshopper View Post
Yes, it is the same. I think that the anonymity of the internet emboldens people to be more extreme than they might be in person. Most everyone I know did not vote for Trump, however, I know a few people who did. The two "groups" have no problem socializing. But we just avoid talking about politics. I will agree, however, that the US is more polarized than I have ever seen it, and I am in my 60s.
In my 60s too, and I think part of what makes for the greater polarization is the more radical difference between Trump and the candidates we're used to choosing from...

Lots can be said about the influence of the Internet too, most certainly including the ability to read, see and hear whatever suits one's perspective. We are more and more victims of confirmation bias that tends to further sow the seeds of division rather than objective reason.

The Internet has also introduced me to a forum like this one where I am exposed to opinion of all kinds, most certainly lots of conservative opinion from all over the country that I/we could never experience locally before the Internet came along.
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