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Old 06-11-2019, 09:38 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,523 posts, read 5,365,231 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Annandale_Man View Post
Good. Another way to remove people from the welfare roles and the unemployment line. If "sex work" is made legal, I would expect all applications for benefits to be denied until ALL LEGAL means of employment are exhausted and that includes sex work.
Unfortunately, you can be employed and still pull welfare... This is all sorts of jobs... Sex work irrevelant. I don't like it as it means employers that don't pay a living wage are subsidizing their labor with tax dollars. But... Thats a different topic.

All but one of my friends in sex work refuse welfare of any sort... There is a certain pride in knowing that you don't depend on the very government that takes away choice and bodily rights and shuns you. The one other person has section 8 housing in NYC which is normal for even higher than minwage earners due to the cost of housing. Most are doing just OK financially relative to other mid to lower incomes.. Sex work is a night time second job for many of them.... Some of their other jobs include dental hygenists, car sales, grocery store, retail, housekeeping. Some only work a few days a week on a schedule so they are home with children most of the time... Or only work nights.
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Old 06-11-2019, 09:55 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,523 posts, read 5,365,231 times
Reputation: 10478
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooby Snacks View Post
We sell ourselves for cash every day. It's called working. It's humorous that people who don't work in the sex trade fail to see the connection. Everyone who has a job sells themselves for money. Whether it's their vaginas, their physical labor, their ideas, or their specific skill set makes no difference. It's all the same: selling themselves for money.
This is the root of the misunderstanding....

People hold sex as if it is something higher than any other human act... It implies that women need to be protected from themselves. All these quality of life laws do is take away choices from people...

It is ok for people to hold as an individual belief or view... But it isn't ok when you expect everyone else to have the same views... And it is oppressive to write said views into law. No one is forcing anyone to work in sex.... Don't like it... Don't do it.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:09 AM
 
12,658 posts, read 10,501,376 times
Reputation: 17562
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
The bolded part is a bias and is present in most of your responses.

The point is that right to privacy between two concenting adults makes this thread more than just prostitution and cannot be discussed in isolation...

Right to free will of choice irregardless of whether aspires, wants, likes a job makes this thread more than just prositution and cannot be discussed in isolation.

Attempting to do so because it is sex for money is a bias. If you truly were not biased then talking about prostitution in terms of individual choice in general or privacy in general would be a natural and acceptable discussion point...

Let me put it this way...

If this was a thread about women's right to vote, you cannot argue equal rights without discussing the rights that men have in comparison. Saying said thread isn't about men but only women doesn't hold water.

People either have the right to privacy or they don't... making exceptions when sex for money is involved is a bias
People either have dominion over their body or they don't... making exceptions when sex for money is involved is a bias.
It is legal to sell.. making exception when the service is sex is a bias
It is legal to have sex with whomever one chooses... making exception when money is exchanged is a bias
Net neutrality... making exceptions for sex work related content (FOSTA/SESTA) is a bias
Of all the most common labor types in human trafficking, only prostitution is illegal... that is a bias
People are under the protections of labor laws... but not prostitutes.. that is a bias
A victim of violence is treated as a victim... but if she is a prostitute, she is a criminal.. that is a bias.

When we have all these legal gymnastics to make exceptions for sex work simply because society looks down on it or it is taboo, that is a prevalent bias against a certain relatively small group of people. The same bias that is perpetuated in your responses.
All this nonsense and you still won't address my actual point. You just call it "bias" when it is a fact that some women are in the situations I describe. So do you disagree that some women are either actually forced into it or feel they have few other options and/or resort to it for various reasons like drug addiction, poverty, etc.?

Are you going out of your way intentionally to make this difficult? I still don't understand why you're arguing with me so hard. You either agree that there are women in these situations or you don't. If you disagree that there are women in these situations, you are wrong.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:14 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,523 posts, read 5,365,231 times
Reputation: 10478
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
All this nonsense and you still won't address my actual point. You just call it "bias" when it is a fact that some women are in the situations I describe. So do you disagree that some women are either actually forced into it or feel they have few other options?

Are you going out of your way intentionally to make this difficult?
I've already answered your question several times... but you refuse to accept it. Trafficking exists in many forms of labor.. thus yes... but why single out prostitution. You also ignore the concerns that people and I have raised that these laws turn victims into criminals and laws that actually favor the traffickers. Other forms of labor with trafficking occuring are still legal. People work jobs each and every day with few other options... but why single out prostitution. People don't need to like or aspire to a job in order to work it legally.

There are many women that enter into sex work voluntarily. You ignore their rights. We don't need laws to force people to live or behave a certain way. We need laws to protect people's choices in the way they live and behave.

What you don't seem to realize is that you want to isolate the discussion of just sex work.. that in of itself is a bias which you perpetuate.

What is difficult is that you refuse to address the biases, assumptions, and questions I ask because you want to formulate the discussion around your views and your views only. It doesn't work that way. As I said, you cannot talk about rights and freedoms in isolation. Prostitution is fundamentally a privacy issue and trafficking is a labor issue. But you don't want to accept it in a discussion because you have no foundation to build on.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:19 AM
 
12,658 posts, read 10,501,376 times
Reputation: 17562
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
I've already answered your question several times... but you refuse to accept it. Trafficking exists in many forms of labor.. thus yes... but why single out prostitution. People work jobs each and every day with few other options... but why single out prostitution.

What you don't seem to realize is that you want to isolate the discussion of just sex work.. that in of itself is a bias which you perpetuate.
No you haven't, you are talking about different things. We are not on the same page.

I am specifically concerned with women who are in vulnerable positions, like I have explained a bunch of times. Not just about trafficking. I understand all the points you are making but they are not what I am talking about or concerned with. Even if prostitution is legal, these vulnerable women will still exist alongside ones benefiting. I think that's a problem.

We are not talking other types of work because this thread isn't about other types of work.

I am not ignoring anyone's rights. I have not taken a solid position either way, I have recognized pros and cons of both systems, implications of both.

YOUR bias is that you apparently know a bunch of people in various types of sex work who have it all good, no issues. Not everyone is in that position.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:23 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,523 posts, read 5,365,231 times
Reputation: 10478
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
No you haven't, you are talking about different things. We are not on the same page.

I am specifically concerned with women who are in vulnerable positions, like I have explained a bunch of times. Not just about trafficking. I understand all the points you are making but they are not what I am talking about or concerned with. Even if prostitution is legal, these vulnerable women will still exist alongside ones benefiting. I think that's a problem.

We are not talking other types of work because this thread isn't about other types of work.

I am not ignoring anyone's rights. I have not taken a solid position either way, I have recognized pros and cons of both systems, implications of both.
I have already addressed women who are in vulnerable positions. Several times. Please read the thread. People in general vulnerable or not do not need to be saved from their own selves. Laws that dictate how people should live and attempt to protect them from themselves only do one thing... remove freedom of choice for everyone. If you care about these vulnerable women, why do we want laws to treat them like criminals? I've asked this question already several times and you ignore.

And as I have already said... prostitution is just another labor type. Making an exception to labor because money for sex is distasteful to you is a bias. Everyone has a right to sell/work labor at their own free will. Why not prostitution? If you make an exception or seek to discuss in isolation you are biased. You either have the right or your don't.... there shouldn't be an exception to prostitution.

You are ignoring peoples rights by making an exception around sex work... it removes the right to dominion over body.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:25 AM
 
12,658 posts, read 10,501,376 times
Reputation: 17562
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
I have already addressed women who are in vulnerable positions. Several times. Please read the thread. People in general vulnerable or not do not need to be saved from their own selves. If you care about these vulnerable women, why do we want laws to treat them like criminals? I've asked this question already several times and you ignore.
I have read the entire thread. I don't think you are understanding my position at all because you asked me again why I want laws to treat them like criminals, I don't want that. I already said that I don't think prostitutes should be arrested, if anyone is I think it should be people paying for them.

You don't understand my position yet you are arguing with me nonstop. Maybe YOU should go back and read the thread.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:28 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,523 posts, read 5,365,231 times
Reputation: 10478
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
I have read the entire thread. I don't think you are understanding my position at all because you asked me again why I want laws to treat them like criminals, I don't want that. I already said that I don't think prostitutes should be arrested, if anyone is I think it should be people paying for them.

You don't understand my position yet you are arguing with me nonstop. Maybe YOU should go back and read the thread.
I know exactly your position. You just don't want to discuss beyond prostitution in isolation because you refuse to allow the natural progression of any discussion about rights in the general.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:32 AM
 
12,658 posts, read 10,501,376 times
Reputation: 17562
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
I know exactly your position. You just don't want to discuss beyond prostitution in isolation because you refuse to allow the natural progression of any discussion about rights in the general.
Like what? What else would you like to discuss? My concerns exist in all types of sex work, it is not limited to prostitution, and if you want to discuss other categories of work, make a new thread.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:35 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,523 posts, read 5,365,231 times
Reputation: 10478
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Like what? What else would you like to discuss?
Every time I make a case that at its root prostitution is a rights issue in general. That prostitution is just liek any other labor with all the rights in general.

You respond with the same... that this thread isn't about other labor types or rights in general.

It is absolutely about rights in general, dominion over body, privacy, and right to choose. But you'd rather control the discussion about sex only because in your view sex is "special".

I made a long list of examples of this... of course you ignored. Whenever you choose to give exception to rights, choices, views based solely on your objection of sex work, you are biased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
if you want to discuss other categories of work, make a new thread.
What makes you think that the discussion over other labor types is a separate discussion from prostitution?

Keep in mind this is what you posted earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
The idea that one can or should buy sex is disturbing. It is overwhelmingly men who buy sex, it gives them the idea that women and sex are a commodity they are entitled to. It dehumanizes women. .

Last edited by usayit; 06-11-2019 at 11:48 AM..
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