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Old 06-10-2019, 08:43 PM
 
Location: NNJ
9,514 posts, read 5,358,962 times
Reputation: 10468

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Again, I did not say they are all trafficked. Me saying they are desperate and have no other options is not the same as me saying they are trafficked.

Women do not aspire to be prostitutes. Not even legal ones. And even legal prostitution is largely frowned upon by society.
Two assumptions and implications of biased views.

Are promiscuous women desperate? Are all sex workers desperate? No...

Are all trafficked? No....

Does a particular job need to be aspired to in order to be legal? No...


I know many in their personal lives (some I've considered friends/family for over two decades). None fall under your views and obviously you don't care about their rights.
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Old 06-10-2019, 08:43 PM
 
7,097 posts, read 1,780,334 times
Reputation: 4208
Quote:
Originally Posted by nedergras View Post
What's best for our society is that people don't support those industries. We aren't Mexico, we aren't Europe, we aren't Thailand. If that's what you want, go teach English in those countries.

Just having your head in the sand and yelling USA USA USA it a poor solution.

Why do you think that the government dictating morality is the solution? Clearly that has been our Modus Operandi for a long time and its failed.


For example Robert Kraft and others get busted, the women deported and others in jail. A few weeks later another operation opens and the same thing repeats. That works for you?

Last edited by Oklazona Bound; 06-10-2019 at 08:55 PM..
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:10 PM
 
12,651 posts, read 10,492,420 times
Reputation: 17535
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklazona Bound View Post
There is no perfect solution. But regulating it instead of chasing it around with the black market is the better solution. In my opinion. In did not start this tread trying to imply legalization is perfect. Its just a step in the right direction.



And what about male prostitutes who have women customers or gay prostitutes with male customers? That is fine?




Lots of people have jobs and careers that they did not aspire to have. Most peoples have lives do not go exactly as planned. If you are 30 and working in fast food things are not as planned. There are lots of people in that situation.

And when society deems something illegal its frowned upon. 30 years ago growing pot was frowned upon by most. Today that has changed in most of America.



The only possible way to stamp out prostitution is to have a police state where everyone is monitored and watched and no one has any rights. That is not something that I want.
I think women are in an inherently more vulnerable position than men but I think any prostitute is vulnerable by the nature of the job. I think male prostitutes are less common and women even more rarely customers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
Two assumptions and implications of biased views.

Are promiscuous women desperate? Are all sex workers desperate? No...

Are all trafficked? No....

Does a particular job need to be aspired to in order to be legal? No...


I know many in their personal lives (some I've considered friends/family for over two decades). None fall under your views and obviously you don't care about their rights.
I care most about the women I am talking about - the ones who are trafficked or in desperate situations and are not truly making a choice. No matter how many are NOT (and I recognize there are some who are not in those positions) my primary concern are the most vulnerable and I explained the reasons why. I thought I have made this clear given my whole position on the issue, you just want to be contrary.

Anyone who can say they are actually choosing to be a prostitute because they truly want to be and are doing okay is in a far better situation and are not the women I am primarily concerned with. I also think those women are rare.

I could also say you are biased.

I would love to know how many women aspire to be prostitutes, have an idea since you're so critical of my views? And also apparently know so many?
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:17 PM
 
7,097 posts, read 1,780,334 times
Reputation: 4208
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
I think women are in an inherently more vulnerable position than men but I think any prostitute is vulnerable by the nature of the job. I think male prostitutes are less common and women even more rarely customers.

From what I have read 80% of prostitutes are women.

https://prostitution.procon.org/view...stionID=000095

Again either we regulate it or chase it around. There is no perfect solution but regulating it seems the better option.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:29 PM
 
12,651 posts, read 10,492,420 times
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The article has some interesting bits that I really don't think help the legalization argument because - surprise - it seems to leave vulnerable people vulnerable:

Quote:
Two of the bill's sponsors, state senators Jessica Ramos and Julia Salazar, have said that 9 out of 10 people arrested in sex-work-related massage parlor raids are immigrants, with most being undocumented Asians.

LGBTQ youth, who often run away from home seeking acceptance, trade sex at 7 to 8 times the rate of other youth in New York City, Ramos and Salazar say.
Illegal immigrants and minors are commonly arrested for it? Yeah, sounds super voluntary and totally a choice they are making, not one out of desperation or lack of options or trafficking.

Why can't a solution be to just not arrest those vulnerable people and arrest those using them? Is it right to allow people to pay for sex from illegal immigrants in massage parlors and especially minors? Are we sure these LGBT youth running away from home are making totally free and voluntary choices? This is what NY/NYC identifies as a problem, kinda opposite of what some here are claiming, isn't it?
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:39 PM
 
Location: NNJ
9,514 posts, read 5,358,962 times
Reputation: 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
I think women are in an inherently more vulnerable position than men but I think any prostitute is vulnerable by the nature of the job. I think male prostitutes are far less common and women even more rarely customers.



I care most about the women I am talking about - the ones who are trafficked or in desperate situations and are not truly making a choice. No matter how many are NOT (and I recognize there are some who are not in those positions) my primary concern are the most vulnerable and I explained the reasons why. I thought I have made this clear given my whole position on the issue, you just want to be contrary.

Anyone who can say they are actually choosing to be a prostitute because they truly want to be and are doing okay is in a far better situation and are not the women I am primarily concerned with. I also think those women are rare.

I could also say you are biased.

I would love to know how many women aspire to be prostitutes, have an idea since you're so critical of my views? And also apparently know so many?
Women in prostitution are vulnerable due to the nature of the job is assumption.

Women choose to see who when and where.. It is no different when money is involved. My friends don't have to see anyone they don't want to. They are vulnerable because the laws that make it illegal make them targets for victimization.... Even by the police themselves (although I have yet to witness this personally. Many of my friends customers are LEO which I don't like because of the power dynamic. But it is their choice not mine and for the most part the LEO customers are friendly enough.

I know there is a dark side to the business... It exists in other labor types that are legal. The issue is that we don't address it as a labor issue but rather a sex issue. Doing so has proven to be a failure and did nothing but remove individual rights. You want to better fight trafficking? Involve and welcome the cooperation for the sex worker community. They are the ones that see everything that happens. Remember, these are people, fathers, mothers... Trafficking doesn't benefit anyone... Including sex workers.

There are victims in nanny restaurants hospitality agriculture... Why do you single out sex work? Because of your bias.

People work undesirable jobs all the time.. Janitorial or whatever... Why do you single out sex work? Is it because of bias? Again a job being undesirable does not justify violating individual right to choose. Nor is it relevant. Can you say everyone works jobs they aspired to do? I don't think so.

How many people do you know aspire to be janitors? Or Porta potty service men... Or low laborers? You seem to ignore the fact that aspiration has nothing to do with individual choice.

I know about 20 actively working consenting sex workers. None of them have regrets. A handful are very close to me. Most are normal regular people ... And part time. One is a high end escort and a manager at a promotional agency that is legit.. Current finally.. Getting back to her college degree. Another is my former fiance (which we didn't meet through sex work...) and raised two good children and one is supported by her in college. She is not a victim nor vulnerable... She is the strongest individual I know and continues to be a good friend and part of my life. Painting her as a victim of bad circumstances and incapable of changing is laughable..

I'd share more... But in PM and with the open minded.

Yes.. I am biased towards individual rights. People have a right to choose... And make mistakes... Or choose to live a life you or anyone else doesn't approve of.

Last edited by usayit; 06-10-2019 at 09:59 PM..
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:40 PM
 
7,097 posts, read 1,780,334 times
Reputation: 4208
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
Why can't a solution be to just not arrest those vulnerable people and arrest those using them?
How about the pimps? They are really the ones using the women. They get away from this free?

Once again making it legal is the best option.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:41 PM
 
6,643 posts, read 1,965,797 times
Reputation: 6233
Whew! Good to know! That will make my life easier!

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Old 06-10-2019, 09:51 PM
 
Location: NNJ
9,514 posts, read 5,358,962 times
Reputation: 10468
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oklazona Bound View Post
How about the pimps? They are really the ones using the women. They get away from this free?

Once again making it legal is the best option.
Pimps IMO are the bottom of the barrel.... Never met one that meant nothing more than bad news.... They are absolutely thr users of women and prey on those that are vulnerable.

Note... Legalization doesn't mean pimping and pandering is also legal. I'd be ok with just decriminalization as the first step....

I would also support legalization of the sale side and leaving it up to the manucipalities to decide if buying sex is a criminal offense. Some countries have done this as an initial compromise.
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Old 06-10-2019, 09:59 PM
 
12,651 posts, read 10,492,420 times
Reputation: 17535
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
Women in prostitution are vulnerable due to the nature of the job is assumption.

Women choose to see who when and where.. It is no different when money is involved. My friends don't have to see anyone they don't want to. They are vulnerable because the laws that make it illegal make them targets for victimization.... Even by the police themselves (although I have yet to witness this personally. Many of my friends customers are LEO which I don't like because of the power dynamic. But it is their choice not mine and for the most part the LEO customers are friendly enough.

I know there is a dark side to the business... It exists in other labor types that are legal. The issue is that we don't address it as a labor issue but rather a sex issue. Doing so has proven to be a failure and did nothing but remove individual rights. You want to better fight trafficking? Involve and welcome the cooperation for the sex worker community. They are the ones that see everything that happens. Remember, these are people, fathers, mothers... Trafficking doesn't benefit anyone... Including sex workers.

There are victims in nanny restaurants hospitality agriculture... Why do you single out sex work? Because of your bias.

People work undesirable jobs all the time.. Janitorial or whatever... Why do you single out sex work? Is it because of bias? Again a job being undesirable does not justify violating individual right to choose. Nor is it relevant. Can you say everyone works jobs they aspired to do? I don't think so.

How many people do you know aspire to be janitors? Or Porta potty service men... Or low laborers? You seem to ignore the fact that aspiration has nothing to do with individual choice.

I know about 20 actively working consenting sex workers. None of them have regrets. Most are normal regular people... And part time. One is a high end escort and a manager at a promotional agency that is legit.. Current finally.. Getting back to her college degree. Another is my former fiance (which we didn't meet through sex work...) and raised two good children and one is supported by her in college. She is not a victim nor vulnerable... She is the strongest individual I know and continues to be a good friend and part of my life. Painting her as a victim of bad circumstances and incapable of changing is laughable..

I'd share more... But in PM and with the open minded.

Yes.. I am biased towards individual rights. People have a right to choose... And make mistakes... Or choose to live a life you or anyone else doesn't approve of.
This long post addresses none of my actual concerns, you're just talking about other examples of prostitutes or other types of sex workers entirely.

I don't need to say again what my concerns are, I have said them enough. You are on a different page.
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