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Old 06-12-2019, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,685 posts, read 8,750,439 times
Reputation: 7299

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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncguy50 View Post
How do safe injections sites and state-run heroin dens provide an incentive for an addict to get clean? What about alcoholics? Are you going to put a pub in the prison stocked with top shelf liquors and cold-filtered beers? Sheesh.
Safe injections are only part of the treatment.

Treatments for alcoholism is different, since it is a different type of substance abuse.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:04 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,685 posts, read 8,750,439 times
Reputation: 7299
Maybe Canadians in general are more open to trying new ideas?

I'm sure not all Canadians support this, but knowing us as I do, most might say " it sound's odd, but give it a go and see if it works".

Those against the Insite safe injection site in Vancouver were sure wrong. So wrong in fact that the success of it has encourage other safe injection sites in Canada.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:11 AM
 
Location: 15 months till retirement and I can leave the hell hole of New Yakistan
25,326 posts, read 14,045,399 times
Reputation: 6505
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Maybe Canadians in general are more open to trying new ideas?

I'm sure not all Canadians support this, but knowing us as I do, most might say " it sound's odd, but give it a go and see if it works".

Those against the Insite safe injection site in Vancouver were sure wrong. So wrong in fact that the success of it has encourage other safe injection sites in Canada.
the problem is you are building/accommodating and addiction


wouldn't the "open minded" position be to get these people help and recovery


plus I can understand "safe injection sites" within a city to be able to control the issue...but in prison? that does not make any sense, especially common sense
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,685 posts, read 8,750,439 times
Reputation: 7299
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
the problem is you are building/accommodating and addiction


wouldn't the "open minded" position be to get these people help and recovery


plus I can understand "safe injection sites" within a city to be able to control the issue...but in prison? that does not make any sense, especially common sense
I think people here have the wrong idea of what this means.

Safe injection is the starting point of treatment. They don't keep giving drugs to the patient forever. It gets more people into detoxification etc.

Vancouver's INSITE

"Over the past three years InSite has been subject to rigorous scientific evaluation, producing over 49 peer-reviewed papers in prestigious scientific journals. The scientific data indicates that InSite is conclusively meeting the following objectives:
Increasing referrals to health and social programs
Reducing overdose fatalities
Reducing the transmission of blood-borne infections like HIV and Hepatitis C
Reducing injection-related infections
Improving public order"

If it didn't stand up to this type of scrutiny, it wouldn't have lasted since 2003.

Insite for Community Safety - Concerned citizens providing fact-based information on Vancouver
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:36 AM
 
1,261 posts, read 288,549 times
Reputation: 1510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
Safe injections are only part of the treatment.

Treatments for alcoholism is different, since it is a different type of substance abuse.
Your first statement makes an assumption that is not true. People who use these sites can be linked or referred to treatment centers, but it is voluntary. Through omission of information, you suggest safe injections come bundled with treatment for addiction and that is not true. Leftists leech taxpayers so that an addict can get high safely. I suppose an argument can be made about long-term medical cost savings, but the fact remains they are supplying heroin and immediate medical care at taxpayer expense.

Your second statement is a distinction without a difference. Both require a detox period and neither should be indulged by the taxpayer in my opinion.

People choose to use drugs for recreation or as a coping mechanism, but either way, it is a choice they make. Other people in similar circumstances make other choices. Leftists abuse peoples' compassion through endless accommodation of others' excesses and then take it a step further by implying that people who continuously make poor choices are the de-facto wards of people who don't. There is a limit to the number of times I'm willing to invest in a person who goes back to drugs again and again. Compassion should have a limit especially when it is clear you are a financial patsy to their enablers.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:49 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
71,957 posts, read 83,625,334 times
Reputation: 41769
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
No, its actually a safer alternative to the illegal (unregulated) heroin,that was being smuggled in and used.


This lack of quality standards/ regulation is why we had lots of overdose deaths last year when heroin was laced with the elephant tranquilizer, Carfentanyl... users had NO IDEA what they were using and it killed them.


When addicts KNOW what they are taking, its safer for everyone, when its illegal, there is no regulation, no standards, basically anything under the kitchen sink could be mixed into the batch and users would have no clue.


If the goal is harm reduction, regulation and quality standards are the only way to do it.


* Just a side note here, street heroin is a dirty dark color when mixed with water, on the other hand, pharmaceutical grade Heroin, is crystal clear, looks like water...what sounds like the safer drug to use?
I an't believe Canada is doing this and I can't believe some think it is a good idea. Maybe next we will see prisons have happy hour every Friday night or allowing a glass of wine with dinner.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:58 AM
 
Location: Vancouver
12,685 posts, read 8,750,439 times
Reputation: 7299
Quote:
Originally Posted by ncguy50 View Post
Your first statement makes an assumption that is not true. People who use these sites can be linked or referred to treatment centers, but it is voluntary. Through omission of information, you suggest safe injections come bundled with treatment for addiction and that is not true. Leftists leech taxpayers so that an addict can get high safely. I suppose an argument can be made about long-term medical cost savings, but the fact remains they are supplying heroin and immediate medical care at taxpayer expense.

Your second statement is a distinction without a difference. Both require a detox period and neither should be indulged by the taxpayer in my opinion.

People choose to use drugs for recreation or as a coping mechanism, but either way, it is a choice they make. Other people in similar circumstances make other choices. Leftists abuse peoples' compassion through endless accommodation of others' excesses and then take it a step further by implying that people who continuously make poor choices are the de-facto wards of people who don't. There is a limit to the number of times I'm willing to invest in a person who goes back to drugs again and again. Compassion should have a limit especially when it is clear you are a financial patsy to their enablers.
My first statement is true. I never said, nor did the links I provided from INSITE state that ALL patients go further along into treatment centres. It quite clearly states that it creates a 30 percent increase in detoxification use. That is only one study though and 12 years old. My guesss after more years of expertise under their belt, they are doing more now.

I know the link has a lot of information in it, but it's you who has made an assumption here. I suggest you read more of it.

My second statement is again true, and the Canadian taxpayers believe in facts, and those facts show that it is cost effective to have these centres.

Leftits. Sigh.

Even though Canada is less divisive in this regard, and left and right politics are very different than the US, it was the Conservatives who were against INSITE.

Now? Not so much, even the leader of the Conservative Party ( who I really don't care for ) has stated

"My message to people in British Columbia and Vancouver is a sincere desire to find policy that works, balancing the legitimate and proper concerns of families and individuals who have real concerns about [supervised consumption] in their community with the need to save lives, the recognition that addicts are in a type of place where they will do what they can to get their hands on narcotics and take them," Scheer said."

In other words, when the health providers, medical experts and the people on the ground says something works, even those who originally were opposed, come around. At least in Canada.
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Old 06-12-2019, 11:59 AM
 
13,139 posts, read 4,479,397 times
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Jail is the best place for them to detox. Heroin withdrawal isn't deadly, let them detox from it and they have a better chance of staying off of it. Letting them continue to use it is a fool's errand and does nothing for the addicted person.
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Old 06-12-2019, 12:32 PM
 
14,199 posts, read 6,108,749 times
Reputation: 8850
Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
Would you rather continue paying for YEARS and YEARS of Suboxone and methodone treatment for former heroin addicts, like whats going on in the US right now? The Suboxone doctors office I go to, 99% of the patients are on state medicaid and pay nothing, they have weekly doctor visits, weekly drug screens, and are prescribed Suboxone, which costs about $700 per month, per person...All of this paid by the taxpayers!
Honestly, yes I would. I understand it is lifetime treatment like we would for Diabetics, but Iíd rather pay for that than for someone to shoot heroin into their veins. How does that help society when these junkies get out of prison?
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Old 06-12-2019, 12:32 PM
 
1,261 posts, read 288,549 times
Reputation: 1510
Quote:
Originally Posted by Natnasci View Post
My first statement is true. I never said, nor did the links I provided from INSITE state that ALL patients go further along into treatment centres. It quite clearly states that it creates a 30 percent increase in detoxification use. That is only one study though and 12 years old. My guesss after more years of expertise under their belt, they are doing more now.

I know the link has a lot of information in it, but it's you who has made an assumption here. I suggest you read more of it.

My second statement is again true, and the Canadian taxpayers believe in facts, and those facts show that it is cost effective to have these centres.

Leftits. Sigh.

Even though Canada is less divisive in this regard, and left and right politics are very different than the US, it was the Conservatives who were against INSITE.

Now? Not so much, even the leader of the Conservative Party ( who I really don't care for ) has stated

"My message to people in British Columbia and Vancouver is a sincere desire to find policy that works, balancing the legitimate and proper concerns of families and individuals who have real concerns about [supervised consumption] in their community with the need to save lives, the recognition that addicts are in a type of place where they will do what they can to get their hands on narcotics and take them," Scheer said."

In other words, when the health providers, medical experts and the people on the ground says something works, even those who originally were opposed, come around. At least in Canada.
If the program has seen a 30% increase in detoxification use, what percentage of that 30% has resulted in a permanent cessation of drug use? If the documentaries I've watched recently are any indicator, detox centers are used by addicts as a good place to feed and flop on the taxpayer dime. I know a guy who lived on my street who went through a 90-day detox program on the beach in Wilmington, NC. He liked it so much, he went through it 3 TIMES. Why not? It didn't cost him a penny. And he felt so good and so refreshed when he returned he immediately went out and partied with his girlfriend. Guess how they lived it up.

While I do agree somewhat with the quote from the conservative leader, I'm not sure what results must occur for them to say the program is working. You couch "coming around" of Canadians as an acceptance of facts. I don't know. Maybe. But perhaps it's more of a capitulation to a system that is going to impose a morality on them whether they disagree with it or not.
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