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View Poll Results: Should the Democrats make their Primary Democratic?
Yes: It is hypocritical to have such an undemocratic system while claiming to expand democracy 12 75.00%
No: We want Party leaders to create a less democratic system for picking candidates 4 25.00%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-12-2019, 03:39 PM
Status: "I said God Bless the Coal Miners Union" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,399 posts, read 600,708 times
Reputation: 1048

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
You and the OP are looking to slag on Dems, not debate.
Again, if you can read minds, you can really monetize that. BTW I am a Dem, or more-or-less ex-Dem due to the now-thoroughgoing embrace of ID politics by the party.

Quote:

The EC is a poor relic of the 18th century and most Americans want it gone.

Those are the facts, trav.
You don't understand the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion.'

The EC was duly negotiated by small states in 1787 to ensure they would not be overrun by large pop states (mainly VA back then). It worked as intended then, and it still works today.

Last edited by travis t; 06-12-2019 at 04:14 PM..
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Old 06-12-2019, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Texas
35,292 posts, read 19,322,938 times
Reputation: 20918
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
Again, if you can read minds, you can really monetize that. BTW I am a Dem, or more-or-less ex-Dem due to the now-thoroughgoing embrace of ID politics by the party.
Good for you.

Tell the Dems how to run their primaries.

Keep us updated.
Quote:
You don't understand the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion.'
I understand that I've presented facts that upset you.

Quote:
The EC was duly negotiated by small states in 1787
Yep. Relic of the 18th century
Quote:
to ensure they would not be overrun by large pop states (mainly VA back then). It worked as intended then, and it still works today.
Now THAT'S your opinion.

Most Americans want voters to elect the prez, not the states.

And that's a fact.

About 53 percent of voters would scrap the Electoral College system in favor of the popular vote, while 43 percent prefer the status quo, according to the NBC News-Wall Street Journal survey released Monday.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/...toral-college/

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Old 06-12-2019, 04:16 PM
Status: "I said God Bless the Coal Miners Union" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,399 posts, read 600,708 times
Reputation: 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
Good for you.

Tell the Dems how to run their primaries.

Keep us updated.
I understand that I've presented facts that upset you.

Yep. Relic of the 18th century
Now THAT'S your opinion.

Most Americans want voters to elect the prez, not the states.

And that's a fact.

About 53 percent of voters would scrap the Electoral College system in favor of the popular vote, while 43 percent prefer the status quo, according to the NBC News-Wall Street Journal survey released Monday.

https://www.nationalreview.com/news/...toral-college/

So file a Constitutional Amendment to scrap the EC. Let us know how it goes.
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Old 06-12-2019, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Texas
35,292 posts, read 19,322,938 times
Reputation: 20918
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
So file a Constitutional Amendment to scrap the EC. Let us know how it goes.

Neither of us knows when, but the EC is going on the scrap heap.

It'll take awhile, though.
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Old 06-12-2019, 05:03 PM
Status: "I said God Bless the Coal Miners Union" (set 2 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,399 posts, read 600,708 times
Reputation: 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
Neither of us knows when, but the EC is going on the scrap heap.

It'll take awhile, though.
13 states can stop an amendment. It will never be in the interest of the 13 smallest pop. states to drop the EC.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:04 PM
 
16,815 posts, read 9,130,160 times
Reputation: 6812
Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
Most Americans want voters to elect the prez, not the states.
Then logically most Americans would want voters to elect the presidential nominees.


It would be hypocritical to claim that voters not states should elect the president and then support a system where ultra-elite super-delegates and winner take all state delegates choose the two front-runners for president.


Can you provide a logical explanation how you can make claims against the Electoral College that also strike against the primary system, but care about changing one and not the other?


Trump is very unpopular and that has fed more angst against the Electoral College, because Hillary campaign as if it were a popular vote and then got those results. Is this solely about this and not a sincere effort to increase democracy?
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:10 PM
 
738 posts, read 133,587 times
Reputation: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by carterstamp View Post
The electoral college favors the GOP, because the GOP gerrymandered it that way.

Hypocritical? Try cleaning up the GOP first.
by creating states?
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Texas
35,292 posts, read 19,322,938 times
Reputation: 20918
Quote:
Originally Posted by michiganmoon View Post
Then logically most Americans would want voters to elect the presidential nominees.


It would be hypocritical to claim that voters not states should elect the president and then support a system where ultra-elite super-delegates and winner take all state delegates choose the two front-runners for president.


Can you provide a logical explanation how you can make claims against the Electoral College that also strike against the primary system, but care about changing one and not the other?


Trump is very unpopular and that has fed more angst against the Electoral College, because Hillary campaign as if it were a popular vote and then got those results. Is this solely about this and not a sincere effort to increase democracy?
I'm of the opinion that the parties can make the process for nominating their candidates by the processes they deem appropriate. They aren't bound by constitutional law.

And the EC, which is law, is badly flawed and has demonstrated itself to be a terribly outdated anachronism that needs to be scrapped.

If you have an issue with the parties and their nominating procedures, then take it up with them.

Because you'll get nowhere with it on an internet forum.
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Old 06-12-2019, 06:26 PM
 
Location: Dublin, OH
2,429 posts, read 3,432,224 times
Reputation: 1525
As a Democrat, I do feel they need to get rid of the super delegates...they do need a national primary and not one that favors states that are so small and insignificant like NH or IA or SC (a state that never goes Blue for the main election anyway).
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:50 AM
 
16,815 posts, read 9,130,160 times
Reputation: 6812
Quote:
Originally Posted by ohioaninsc View Post
As a Democrat, I do feel they need to get rid of the super delegates...they do need a national primary and not one that favors states that are so small and insignificant like NH or IA or SC (a state that never goes Blue for the main election anyway).
That is because you have democratic principles and want to see democracy expanded.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
I'm of the opinion that the parties can make the process for nominating their candidates by the processes they deem appropriate. They aren't bound by constitutional law.
So you aren't principled in your claims that it should be people not states voting. You don't truly believe that, because you are fine with it happening for voting on the two front runners. It is political for you to support it in the general election, but not at the primary level.

Secondly the primaries are bound by constitutional law. They cannot for example break the 15th or 19th amendments among other constitutional constraints.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
And the EC, which is law, is badly flawed and has demonstrated itself to be a terribly outdated anachronism that needs to be scrapped.
And the primaries are based on the EC, except with less democracy (super-delegates). If you oppose the EC, you should inherently oppose the primaries.

Why do you think it is that there is less democracy in the Democratic Primaries than the Republican Primaries? Trying to keep the riff raff votes at a minimum of influence?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Old Gringo View Post
If you have an issue with the parties and their nominating procedures, then take it up with them.
As soon as most Democrats are truly principled on the reasons they oppose the EC (one person = one vote, people voting not states, being opposed to electors while having delegates and super-delegates) then the primary will change instantly.

Democrats could make their primary democratic today if they wanted to.
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