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Old 06-11-2019, 10:15 AM
 
15,191 posts, read 4,018,099 times
Reputation: 10989

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Those who follow such things have seen this coming - but it is accellerating very quickly since the Orthodox percentage (formerly 10% or less) is having 7 Children per family....now they are 12%.

By and large they are excluded from Military Service. They also are largely on welfare...as they believe that the true Life is to study, debate and pray. They do not participate in what we would call modern life (internet, movies, friendly with secular Israelis).

Yet the VAST majority of the country is secular and opposed to these people getting free stuff and not being normal members of civil society (womens rights, civil rights, pay your way, serve your country, etc.).....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.341d38babcb7

This article lays some of it out, but the basics are:

1. Country was founded as a secular society.
2. Military service has been compulsory.
3. As the Orthodox has seized more power, they have legislated exceptions for themselves as well as free stuff (they don't have to work, just study)....
4. Reproduction rates vastly higher than westernized population....
5. Already big clashes in government and society concerning this......

and, then, as the article suggest, the end game might be:

"He predicted that Israel will reach a tipping point when the balance between the Jewish communities will no longer be sustainable, and secular Jews would then begin leaving Israel because it had grown so restrictive.

“At some point it will break,” he warned
."

So, which Israel do CD members support? The "Freedom of Religion" conservatives who claim the country and laws should revolve around them and the strict interpretation of the ancient rites and traditions......

or, the liberal western secular society that has had enough of being told what to do by the Hierarchy?

The article is quite interesting. Religious Jews are actually afraid of their family members meeting secular people! This differs from even our Amish or Mennonites here who mingle freely in business and other matters. I don't think, tho, that our Amish try to take over politically (although they don't serve in the military and don't pay SS in many cases...don't collect it either).

I think the USA has a better take on this. Some small exceptions, but not a "blessed from the top" large percentage who get exceptions to the rules of civil society.

Whether or not the article projects the future...that's another story. But the opinion put forward is that it is not Islam, but Fundamentalism, that could end up hurting Israel the most.

On a humorous note, they are easily chased away by female breasts, so it's easy to fight them in the streets.

You can't "unsee" things once you've seen them and that's the folly of trying to live outside the modern world.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:34 AM
 
3,358 posts, read 649,632 times
Reputation: 2351
^^^ Just what we need.....a secular Jew (although he does say he went to military school and attended church services) making fun of religious Jews. As if we don't have enough antisemites in the world, we have to have a JEW (!!) poking fun at observant Jews.

(And some of you think there's no such thing as a self-loathing Jew? Just look to the liberal, secular Jews like this one. The disdain is just dripping.)
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:40 AM
 
Location: OH->FL->NJ
9,949 posts, read 8,077,811 times
Reputation: 4205
There are a few towns in NY and NJ where this is happening.

IIRC one of the 12 original Jewish tribes had this role. Presumably the were around 8% of the population not 12%

It IS Israel's business, however, not ours.
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Old 06-11-2019, 11:56 AM
Status: "that should be 'righties'" (set 28 days ago)
 
1,843 posts, read 1,097,705 times
Reputation: 1552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
^^^ Just what we need.....a secular Jew (although he does say he went to military school and attended church services) making fun of religious Jews. As if we don't have enough antisemites in the world, we have to have a JEW (!!) poking fun at observant Jews.

(And some of you think there's no such thing as a self-loathing Jew? Just look to the liberal, secular Jews like this one. The disdain is just dripping.)



...what is a 'Jew'?...


...is it a religion?...if so, how can one be an atheist/secular jew?


...is it an 'ethnicity'?...if so how can say, ivanka trump 'become' jewish?


...is it being a 'semite'?..if that's the case the palestinians are semites (is case you didn't know, 'semite' is a term to denote a certain language that was was spoken in the assyrian empire) as much as the jews?


...i'm not asking 'what it means to be Jewish'...just what defines a jew?...cause it is very confusing
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Old 06-11-2019, 12:08 PM
 
3,358 posts, read 649,632 times
Reputation: 2351
Quote:
Originally Posted by justus978 View Post
...what is a 'Jew'?...


...is it a religion?...if so, how can one be an atheist/secular jew?


...is it an 'ethnicity'?...if so how can say, ivanka trump 'become' jewish?


...is it being a 'semite'?..if that's the case the palestinians are semites (is case you didn't know, 'semite' is a term to denote a certain language that was was spoken in the assyrian empire) as much as the jews?


...i'm not asking 'what it means to be Jewish'...just what defines a jew?...cause it is very confusing
A Jew is someone who is born to a Jewish mother or converts to Judaism. Period. It is more than a religion, but less than a race. It is a "people." (But I think you knew that.)

There are varying degrees of observance. It is not uncommon for non-observant Jews to show disdain for observant Jews. The only person who ever taunted me for keeping kosher was....a Jew who didn't keep kosher.
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Old 06-11-2019, 01:39 PM
 
Location: San Jose
2,112 posts, read 642,434 times
Reputation: 2256
Quote:
Originally Posted by justus978 View Post
...what is a 'Jew'?...


...is it a religion?...if so, how can one be an atheist/secular jew?


...is it an 'ethnicity'?...if so how can say, ivanka trump 'become' jewish?


...is it being a 'semite'?..if that's the case the palestinians are semites (is case you didn't know, 'semite' is a term to denote a certain language that was was spoken in the assyrian empire) as much as the jews?


...i'm not asking 'what it means to be Jewish'...just what defines a jew?...cause it is very confusing
Its all of the above.

Being Jewish is part ethnic, part cultural, part linguistic, part religious. If you understand the history of the Middle East, then you can understand how this came about. Being that the cultures of the region are very old and there has been countless invaders and conquerors who have passed through. The one way the people of the region have kept there identity through all of the changes and turmoil has been through a quasi cultural, linguistic and religious syncretism. This helps preserve the core cultural elements of the community.

There are several other Middle Eastern peoples that are similar to Jews in this regard. Assyrians, Armenians Yazadis, and Mandaeans come to mind.
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:01 PM
 
16,281 posts, read 9,113,496 times
Reputation: 6556
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Those who follow such things have seen this coming - but it is accellerating very quickly since the Orthodox percentage (formerly 10% or less) is having 7 Children per family....now they are 12%.

By and large they are excluded from Military Service. They also are largely on welfare...as they believe that the true Life is to study, debate and pray. They do not participate in what we would call modern life (internet, movies, friendly with secular Israelis).

Yet the VAST majority of the country is secular and opposed to these people getting free stuff and not being normal members of civil society (womens rights, civil rights, pay your way, serve your country, etc.).....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.341d38babcb7

This article lays some of it out, but the basics are:

1. Country was founded as a secular society.
2. Military service has been compulsory.
3. As the Orthodox has seized more power, they have legislated exceptions for themselves as well as free stuff (they don't have to work, just study)....
4. Reproduction rates vastly higher than westernized population....
5. Already big clashes in government and society concerning this......

and, then, as the article suggest, the end game might be:

"He predicted that Israel will reach a tipping point when the balance between the Jewish communities will no longer be sustainable, and secular Jews would then begin leaving Israel because it had grown so restrictive.

“At some point it will break,” he warned."

So, which Israel do CD members support? The "Freedom of Religion" conservatives who claim the country and laws should revolve around them and the strict interpretation of the ancient rites and traditions......

or, the liberal western secular society that has had enough of being told what to do by the Hierarchy?

The article is quite interesting. Religious Jews are actually afraid of their family members meeting secular people! This differs from even our Amish or Mennonites here who mingle freely in business and other matters. I don't think, tho, that our Amish try to take over politically (although they don't serve in the military and don't pay SS in many cases...don't collect it either).

I think the USA has a better take on this. Some small exceptions, but not a "blessed from the top" large percentage who get exceptions to the rules of civil society.

Whether or not the article projects the future...that's another story. But the opinion put forward is that it is not Islam, but Fundamentalism, that could end up hurting Israel the most.

On a humorous note, they are easily chased away by female breasts, so it's easy to fight them in the streets.

You can't "unsee" things once you've seen them and that's the folly of trying to live outside the modern world.

I guess if I take you for 100% accurate in all your points, I support a conservative (read American Conservative Political) solution.




this one is super simple. the answer is to not give welfare to people capable of working but who refuse to work.


period. end of story.


the problem that may exist in Israel is the liberal bent their state takes where the social saftynet isn't a safety net at all. rather it is a way to avoid being what a person should be.




It is the OT (read jewish holy writ) that tells us we eat by the sweat of our brows.




the answer is as it almost always is. Reject the liberal/progressive approach. you wanna eat, go to work
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:03 PM
 
764 posts, read 252,056 times
Reputation: 360
the title says FUNDIE and is pretty self-explanatory i was raised as a catholic but i actually believe MY belief in MY god is the most personal thing that i have...while i don't condemn my fellow Christians i HAVE serious issues with christian fundamentalist am I an anti-christian as well..i believe people only know what they are taught and many express the SAME things with their concept as i do with mine...we all have freedom of thought as far as i know..because someone does not cross their T's and dot their I's exactly as you does NOT make them an enemy
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Old 06-11-2019, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
13,697 posts, read 5,520,095 times
Reputation: 5378
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Those who follow such things have seen this coming - but it is accellerating very quickly since the Orthodox percentage (formerly 10% or less) is having 7 Children per family....now they are 12%.

By and large they are excluded from Military Service. They also are largely on welfare...as they believe that the true Life is to study, debate and pray. They do not participate in what we would call modern life (internet, movies, friendly with secular Israelis).

Yet the VAST majority of the country is secular and opposed to these people getting free stuff and not being normal members of civil society (womens rights, civil rights, pay your way, serve your country, etc.).....

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...=.341d38babcb7

This article lays some of it out, but the basics are:

1. Country was founded as a secular society.
2. Military service has been compulsory.
3. As the Orthodox has seized more power, they have legislated exceptions for themselves as well as free stuff (they don't have to work, just study)....
4. Reproduction rates vastly higher than westernized population....
5. Already big clashes in government and society concerning this......

and, then, as the article suggest, the end game might be:

"He predicted that Israel will reach a tipping point when the balance between the Jewish communities will no longer be sustainable, and secular Jews would then begin leaving Israel because it had grown so restrictive.

“At some point it will break,” he warned
."

So, which Israel do CD members support? The "Freedom of Religion" conservatives who claim the country and laws should revolve around them and the strict interpretation of the ancient rites and traditions......

or, the liberal western secular society that has had enough of being told what to do by the Hierarchy?

The article is quite interesting. Religious Jews are actually afraid of their family members meeting secular people! This differs from even our Amish or Mennonites here who mingle freely in business and other matters. I don't think, tho, that our Amish try to take over politically (although they don't serve in the military and don't pay SS in many cases...don't collect it either).

I think the USA has a better take on this. Some small exceptions, but not a "blessed from the top" large percentage who get exceptions to the rules of civil society.

Whether or not the article projects the future...that's another story. But the opinion put forward is that it is not Islam, but Fundamentalism, that could end up hurting Israel the most.

On a humorous note, they are easily chased away by female breasts, so it's easy to fight them in the streets.

You can't "unsee" things once you've seen them and that's the folly of trying to live outside the modern world.
Unlimited freedom of religion has consequences.

We have the same problem here in the states.
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:45 PM
 
15,191 posts, read 4,018,099 times
Reputation: 10989
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferd View Post
I guess if I take you for 100% accurate in all your points, I support a conservative (read American Conservative Political) solution.

the answer is as it almost always is. Reject the liberal/progressive approach. you wanna eat, go to work
Confusing....since in Isreal it is the liberal secularists....who are saying the same thing you seem to be advocating and the "conservative" orthodoxy (doesn't orthodoxy sorta mean conservative?) that is pushing for more free stuff.

It's not our problem directly, but definitely is when it come to "support of Israel". If secular Israelis start leaving in any numbers due to restrictions on their way of life AND on excess taxation to pay for Talmud students...then who are we left supporting?

Also, we do have similar problems here with minority religions inserting themselves heavily into our various governments. It's well known that MANY "sects" exist on vast amounts of welfare (10's of thousands in the Fundie Mormons, for example FLDS). But the USA is much larger so our tax base is wider...although with the wealthy avoiding taxes and tax cuts from debt and deficit, it's not like our financial future is rosy...

There was some reporting on upstate NY Jewish "communes" taking over the government of towns and then cutting school programs (since they don't use the public schools" and taking other actions which benefit them....over the poor side of the tracks. That's the way, in general, any government works but at the same time it gets thrown out of whack when any "commune" can swing a vote.

I lived on a hippie commune way back - we had about 700 votes and could have swung a LOT of elections. Our leaders said "we shouldn't vote"...and we didn't. I think it was the right decision at the time...when in Rome, as they say.
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