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Old 06-11-2019, 08:05 PM
 
966 posts, read 384,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
No red hats or t-shirts needed. I suspect we might get some MAGA / Trump converts though.

What part of the platform sucks?
In broad strokes, several of your proposals would simply scale back the illegal immigrant welfare state so that we can expand the welfare state for blue-collar citizens. Itís a Republican wet dream, but not a sustainable, fiscally responsible solution.
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:20 PM
 
3,994 posts, read 4,133,577 times
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With the probable exception of action on global warming, didn't you just describe the Reform Party of the 1990s?

Didn't that morph into the "Tea parties" and morph back in to the Right Wing of the Republican Party?

Cuz many or most of the activist cared far more about platform item #1 than anything else and did not seem to do anything tangible on all the others, basically either eventually accepting the traditional Republican stands on the other issues or going silent on them or giving up entirely?

How is it going to work to prevent the Republican operatives and leeches simply out for money, fame and trash talking from trying to take over again?

If you try it, it might hurt the Republicans briefly like in 1992. For it to "work" would probably take 2-4 plus elections.


To get voters from the Democratic Party you'd have to outdo them on 3,4,5, 6 and 8. It would be hard to do that and retain Republicans or former Republicans who mainly come for 1 and 2. Some might come for 4 and / or 8 too, but it would be hard to please enough people to come from both directons (necessary to get to majority status or even meaningful player status) and stay with the others. Didn't work several times before. Even back to John Anderson in 1980 or maybe George Wallace in 1972.

Last edited by NW Crow; 06-11-2019 at 08:29 PM..
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:30 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
13,753 posts, read 5,587,214 times
Reputation: 5414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial Observer View Post
In broad strokes, several of your proposals would simply scale back the illegal immigrant welfare state so that we can expand the welfare state for blue-collar citizens. Itís a Republican wet dream, but not a sustainable, fiscally responsible solution.
The welfare for the coal miners would be temporary. We should have programs to help people who become disabled from a lifetime of hard physical labor. Itís the humane thing to do; it is not a ďhandout to lazy people.Ē
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
28,779 posts, read 15,602,860 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
Ok. Stay in the Republican Party.
You are rejecting because of one issue?

How are you different from the other parties if you can't tolerate someone who only agrees with 7 out of your 8 positions?
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:37 PM
 
Location: Boston
8,221 posts, read 2,391,645 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
No. The Republican Party thinks global warming is a hoax and wants to expand coal power. The Republicans also want more wars and a bigger military.



No red hats or t-shirts needed. I suspect we might get some MAGA / Trump converts though.

What part of the platform sucks?
8 years of Obama

8 years at war
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:38 PM
 
3,994 posts, read 4,133,577 times
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What if you changed to it:


1) Stop illegal immigration going forward. AND deal with past immigration enforcement lapses that have never been adequately addressed with some step by step amnesty and penalties AND expanding legal immigration for well-screened, non criminals likely to succeed based on skills and family linkages?

2) A two prong China strategy to engage, fit within the world community and respond as necessary to unfair economic practices, repression and aggression?

3, 4, 5, 6 probably something like you envision

7) Federal money for nuclear reactor research will be restarted along with more aggressive efforts on solar, wind, battery, conservation, etc.

8) Avoid all foreign wars unless it is judged necessary for self defense by super majorities of Congress and the American people (and maybe super majorities of existing allies) and meets a very high threshold of indirect or future self-defense. Like WWII.

And maybe a few other things (I won't explore at the moment).


Would you be willing to join that party?
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:40 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
13,753 posts, read 5,587,214 times
Reputation: 5414
Quote:
Originally Posted by NW Crow View Post
What if you changed to it:


1) Stop illegal immigration going forward. AND deal with past immigration enforcement lapses that have never been adequately addressed with sme step by step amnesty and penalties AND expanding legal immigration for well-screened, non criminals likely to succeed based on skills and family linkages?


2) A two prong China strategy to engage, fit within the world community and respond as necessary to unfair economic practices, repression and aggression?

3, 4, 5, 6 probably something like you envision


7) Federal money for nuclear reactor research will be restarted along with aggressive efforts on solar, wind, battery, conservation, etc.



8) Avoid all foreign wars unless it is necessary for self defense unless it meets a very high threshold of indirect or future self-defense.


Would you be willing to join that party?
Sure. It sounds good to me.
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:46 PM
 
966 posts, read 384,325 times
Reputation: 1793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freak80 View Post
The welfare for the coal miners would be temporary. We should have programs to help people who become disabled from a lifetime of hard physical labor. Itís the humane thing to do; it is not a ďhandout to lazy people.Ē
Itís always ďtemporary,Ē until they realize that they lack transferable skills and canít support a family with the low-wage jobs available to uneducated manual laborers. And if you donít put a new factory in their backyard, theyíre not going to uproot themselves.

When local jobs dry up, people donít adapt. They apply for disability benefits. Some have legitimate claims; some donít. Disability benefits were never meant to be a refuge from a bad economy, but weíve created a culture of dependency. Your plan only reinforces that culture.
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:51 PM
 
3,994 posts, read 4,133,577 times
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Ok, Freak 80. It appears we probably can agree on quite a bit, whether we are in the same party or not.

If a third party is to survive, it probably needs to pull from both parties. If it mainly pulls from one party, it's size is probably limited and the one party will definitely try to reel those folks back in by various means. Fatigue in the wilderness middle can also have an affect, especially on officeholders or those desiring to old office. If voters from the other party don't have as compelling a case to shift, they might stay with their home party because at least they are winning and giving them some of what they prefer.

I might support a third party in the future. In the past I never was sufficiently disgusted with the Democrats or sufficiently impressed with or confident of victory with new options in the middle.
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Old 06-11-2019, 08:54 PM
 
Location: Divided Tribes of America
13,753 posts, read 5,587,214 times
Reputation: 5414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Partial Observer View Post
Itís always ďtemporary,Ē until they realize that they lack transferable skills and canít support a family with the low-wage jobs available to uneducated manual laborers. And if you donít put a new factory in their backyard, theyíre not going to uproot themselves.

When local jobs dry up, people donít adapt. They apply for disability benefits. Some have legitimate claims; some donít. Disability benefits were never meant to be a refuge from a bad economy, but weíve created a culture of dependency. Your plan only reinforces that culture.
If disability programs are being abused, that needs to change. People should adapt and not simply live off the government. But we donít want to destroy the lives of 50 year old coal miners who have few options. Theyíre probably not going to become tech bros at Google.
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