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Old 06-13-2019, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Somewhere out there.
6,857 posts, read 3,781,164 times
Reputation: 4592

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TXNGL View Post
Cakes are not Christian, Jewish, Muslim, gay, straight, transgender... . They're cakes. That was my point and why I thought it was funny that people were calling a CAKE (flour, milk, eggs, sugar...) "GAY". It's funny to me. Maybe not to you.

Listen. I'm probably one of the most far left liberals on this board.

I'm also an atheist. Maybe that makes me a bit more objective than most since I view all religions the same.
These cakes are clearly not just cakes, they are actually the result of a person's creativity.

Saying they are just cakes is like saying a portrait of Jesus on the cross is just oil paint on canvas. No it isn't. It's much, much more than that.

I don't care how this whole issue relates to the constitution. I don't care about how it relates to historical facts or laws.
What it comes down to is you are asking a creative person to create something they have no heart, inclination or joy in creating. Why?

I'm an artist in my spare time. I sell some of my work privately and online. I do not paint any commissions at all because I make enough work that I dont need to take on commissions but mainly because there is no creative joy in it for me. I don't want to paint someone elses vision.

There are enough bakers in the world that will gladly bake the cake you want without forcing a baker who has no interest in it bake it. This makes no sense to me. I think sometimes people just cannot see the woods for the trees.
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Old 06-13-2019, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
20,331 posts, read 10,437,970 times
Reputation: 7964
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamajane View Post
No one said the baker has to attend to participate. If you had a custom birthday cake made then the baker participated.

A wedding is a major life event and a wedding cake is often a centerpiece at the reception. Otherwise, just buy something off the shelf. Wedding planners, florists, photographers, cake designers, all part of making the event come together to be a beautiful celebration. They should be enthusiastic with their creations for all the events they do, not forced into it.
We simply do not agree on what participation in a wedding is.
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Old 06-13-2019, 11:38 AM
 
12,633 posts, read 10,483,539 times
Reputation: 17412
All of you anti-government people think you're so smart and superior, it's hilarious. Civilized societies create laws protecting classes of people from baseless discrimination and from being taken advantage of. Protective laws in the context of business (places of public accommodation) include anti-discrimination laws and laws requiring a minimum wage so people aren't severely underpaid for their labor and can afford to live.

If you want to live in a totally free society where the government doesn't create laws that apparently get in the way of your "property rights," and where you can truly do whatever you want, go create your own and see how well it works out for you. If you seriously want to live in a time where business owners can arbitrarily tell black people or gay people that they won't serve them or rent to them just because they are black and gay or for any other stupid reason based on their own personal problems with or dislike of certain types of people who have done nothing to them but wanted service in a business or to rent an apartment, have fun in your own society elsewhere. But here we as a whole are better than that, even if you are not.
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Old 06-13-2019, 11:43 AM
 
10,992 posts, read 2,726,039 times
Reputation: 5091
Why didn't the troublemakers go to a Muslim bakery? If I were this baker I'd sue for harassment.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:07 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,225 posts, read 4,165,073 times
Reputation: 4753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
The baker that made my birthday cake did not participate in, attend, or was involved in my party in any way other than the commercial transaction of selling me a cake.
If that were true, then you would not be surprised or outraged at your local patisserie making a cake for the local Grand Kleagals appointment ceremony.

If you would be outraged that your local cake shop did that, then it's not as clearly defined as you claim it to be.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:48 PM
 
26,549 posts, read 19,016,439 times
Reputation: 14203
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Would they make the stupid cake?

You'd bake a Nazi themed celebration cake? Or a KKK themed celebration cake?

The fact is I plain don't believe you. There are myriad of cake (or any) themes that you would not for one moment consider producing from your business (if you're a business owner). In fact I'll tell you why you would not, because of the risk that it's an intentional or incidental set up. What would it do to your business if its discovered you provided a KKK celebratory cake to the Grand Kleagal? Or a Nazi themed cake to the local Neo-Nazis? Now what's going to happen if that's published on Twitter, or Facebook? How will it be interpreted and what effect will that have on your business? I mean presuming your business isn't razed in a firebombing.

The quibble is just about what is acceptable to reject and what is not.

So your claims show that the cake is indeed a lie.
you have too many good posts on this thread to choose just one to rep, but i'll pick this one.
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Old 06-13-2019, 12:53 PM
 
Location: NNJ
9,499 posts, read 5,354,273 times
Reputation: 10441
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
The bakery offered the service of making wedding cakes. They didn't walk in and ask for a TV or anything that the bakery didn't already offer for sale.
You still missed the point...

They still have a right to determine what services / goods they offer. If they don't want to bake a cake depicting a gay couple, they don't have to. ... that isn't discrimination. If they refused to sell any cake they have to offer because the couple was gay.. then that's discrimination.

Same thing with Catholic store.... a Jewish person can walk in and buy Catholic specific wares, including a Bible. As long as a Jewish person isn't denied service because they are not Catholic, that is not discrimination. But if said Jewish customer asked to buy a Torah and the store said we don't sell Torahs, that is NOT discrimination.

There is a difference between denial of service due to race, gender, creed, color versus denial of service because the business doesn't offer the service requested.

I'm a supporter of LGBTQ and socially leaning liberal. I have nothing against them. My mother in law, the grandmother of my children, is gay. But I am also vary sensitive to individual rights... and both sides conservative and liberal are guilty of overstepping individual rights. When I say individual rights, I also mean the rights of private businesses.
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Old 06-13-2019, 01:08 PM
 
Location: NNJ
9,499 posts, read 5,354,273 times
Reputation: 10441
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiGeekGuest View Post
I find the bakery owner's rationale & scenario very similar to the Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. owner's lame rationale:
It is not the same.

The Motel specifically didn't offer rooms to African Americans. That is denial of service due to color and is discrimination. It wasn't a denial of service because they didn't have rooms that met the requests of the African Americans.

If two people requested to rent a room from the Motel. The same type of room. If one of the people were denied because they were African American, then it is a case for discrimination.

If two people requested to rent a room from the Motel. If one of the people asked for a type of room that wasn't offered, even if they were an African American customer, and subsequently denied a room, that is NOT a case for discrimination.
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Old 06-13-2019, 01:10 PM
 
Location: NNJ
9,499 posts, read 5,354,273 times
Reputation: 10441
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
A baker is not a participant in a marriage ceremony, they are participants in a commercial transaction.
It doesn't matter....

Do you think a Bible store should be forced to sell Torahs or other religious texts? Its not like the store was participating in a marriage or religious ceremony.

Do you think a dating site for religious people should be forced to accept applicants who are atheists?


The baker wasn't denying a cake they would have agreed to make to the gay couple. They were denying selling a cake of a theme or design they choose not to offer as part of their service.
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Old 06-13-2019, 01:25 PM
 
Location: NNJ
9,499 posts, read 5,354,273 times
Reputation: 10441
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
If you seriously want to live in a time where business owners can arbitrarily tell black people or gay people that they won't serve them or rent to them just because they are black and gay or for any other stupid reason based on their own personal problems with or dislike of certain types of people who have done nothing to them but wanted service in a business or to rent an apartment, have fun in your own society elsewhere. But here we as a whole are better than that, even if you are not.
For every law or regulation there are people who gain protections and others that loose freedom of choice. In some cases, it is justified... example child labor laws and civil rights. It really depends on the line that is drawn and who are the beneficiaries and who are those that pay for it with loss of choices.

Government shouldn't be telling individuals how to live their lives because invariably someone who doesn't conform is going to be discriminated against.

Similarly, Government shouldn't be telling individuals how to run their businesses because invariably someone who doesn't confirm is going to be discriminated against.

I've brought up many examples (Bible store being one). There examples everywhere... you just have to look.

Would you require a OB/GYN to see male individuals?

Would you require female gyms that provide a safer environment for females to exercise to accept male individuals?

Would you require female clothing stores to carry clothing for men?

Because if they don't, by your notions they too would be considered discriminatory based on gender. Those businesses aren't discriminating against men, they are simply offering a business model that is specific to females. Forcing them to do so would be a violation of their rights.
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