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Old 06-13-2019, 03:02 PM
 
Location: SGV
24,760 posts, read 9,643,702 times
Reputation: 9715

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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
If the grand kleagals ordered a cake that the bakery offered to anyone else than the bakery should make that same cake for them too.

The bakery offered three tier white cakes with flowers, then the bakery should make and sell that cake to anyone that wants one. If the bakery offers a cake with a cross on it, they should sell that cake to anyone.
If a bakery offers rubber ducky cakes they should sell them to anyone. If the bakery does not offer a particular cake to anyone, then they do not have to make that cake for anyone.
I like the consistency here. I mean...it's consistency in promotion of slavery but getting a statist to commit to a principle (a means) vs an outcome (an ends) is pretty much a miracle.

Kudos on your shackling of the owner who must provide a virtually impossible business model (dude drops a dozen eggs and can't make a cake that day exactly like he did the day before - cage/fine ensues).

Last edited by No_Recess; 06-13-2019 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:07 PM
 
3,321 posts, read 642,373 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcattwood View Post
Would you refuse to sell somebody a product that you normally have in your store on a Friday if you knew they planned to use it while working on a Saturday?
No. Point taken.

So here's another example: If a Jew asked me to lend him $10 so he could buy crab-cakes for lunch (and he specified that was what he wanted to buy), I would refuse. I do not want to enable another Jew to break kashrut. At the same time, I would never correct a Jew who bought crab-cakes with his own money (and in my presence, as happens all the time) if I had nothing to do with it. But to require me to participate in an exchange that I feel is wrong? Nope.

P.S. I don't know if crab-cakes is hyphenated or not. A nice Jewish girl doesn't know from such things!
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,230 posts, read 4,166,568 times
Reputation: 4753
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
If the grand kleagals ordered a cake that the bakery offered to anyone else than the bakery should make that same cake for them too.

The bakery offered three tier white cakes with flowers, then the bakery should make and sell that cake to anyone that wants one. If the bakery offers a cake with a cross on it, they should sell that cake to anyone.
If a bakery offers rubber ducky cakes they should sell them to anyone. If the bakery does not offer a particular cake to anyone, then they do not have to make that cake for anyone.
But you are dodging the question.

Would you be offended to learn that your local Baker catered to a Klan gathering? Would you continue to use them, or would you find an alternative?

If you feel offended (and it would be entirely human to feel so), even though they were not present, you do feel there is a level of participation. If you feel there is a level of participation in this circumstance there is no logical reason to claim that under a different circumstance the Baker should not feel they are participating.
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:19 PM
 
3,603 posts, read 1,555,428 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
So once again Masterpiece Cakes in in the news because they're being sued AGAIN by liberals. This time they're refusing to make a "gender transition cake". I mean wth is that, but anyway. THey already won in the Supreme Court against a gay couple who tried to force them to make a gay wedding cake.

Now its already clear these buisinesses are being targeted by radical far left groups who travel the country looking for lawsuits and certain conservative or Christian businesses to target.

So what if I were to go to a bakery I know is owned by a liberal Democrat and ask that they make me a cake for July 4th, and on this cake I want them to have "Trump 2020", #MAGA, and Psalm 33:12 "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord."

Or what if I were to go to an Arab Muslim owned bakery and ask for a cake with the Israeli flag on it and a quote from the Bible saying that God will bless those who bless Israel and will curse those who curse Israel?

Should I have the right to have these cakes made? Do liberals believe this athiest, liberal or Muslim should be allowed to refuse my request?

I actually kinda want to do Example #1 on July 4 this year it would be fun.
Meanwhile a shrewd business owner( like our famous Rachel) would bake all 2 cakes, provide great customer service, provide you discount for next visit, earn referrals and develop his business. ( While you are still thinking he is also a Maga guy like you )
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:37 PM
 
Location: NNJ
9,505 posts, read 5,356,621 times
Reputation: 10459
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
I wouldn't require any of those things, my conversation with another poster was about race after someone else brought it up and he explicitly supported race-based discrimination, and my post reflected that and the specific discussion that was had about the Civil Rights Act.

In my post you quoted I only mentioned race and sexual orientation, and I was talking about landlords (which earlier was the basis of my discussion with someone else) and I also said "won't serve them," thinking of a place like a restaurant, bakery, store.

I would not expect OB/GYNs to see male patients, no. That would be ridiculous because their specialty is the female body. I would not expect a gym meant for women to accept men. I support separating people by sex for certain types of services or businesses if there is a benefit to the separation or if it just makes logical sense (like how I don't support all bathrooms or changing rooms to be gender-neutral just because some trans people exist, for safety and privacy reasons it makes sense in some situations to keep women separate from men). It makes sense in some circumstances to have a separation based on sex, it makes sense to have women's clothing stores and men's clothing stores, and I don't think many sane people would object to that or complain that some stores sell only women's clothing or men's clothing. I don't think many sane people would complain that OB/GYNs won't see men as patients or that Curves (the gym) is meant for women. These places, businesses, or individuals in these examples are also not "discriminating" for any arbitrary or hateful purpose.

What sane people would probably object to and what I don't support is a landlord refusing to rent to black people or a restaurant or hotel refusing to serve black or gay people because they are black and gay and the people refusing service are racist or homophobic. Even if no legal protections exist, most would agree this type of discrimination is morally wrong. Most would not agree that an OB/GYN refusing to see a male patient or a clothing store selling only women's clothing is morally wrong.
Bolded part.... Ridiculous is a personal reaction and "feeling". I'm pretty sure the owner of the bakery probably thought it would be ridiculous to force him/her to bake a cake they didn't offer. The issue here is you are only making exceptions for things that fit nicely within your views and opinions.

If a gym chooses to not serve men, it is perfectly in their right to defined that as the business they offer.

If a bible store chooses only to sell Bibles, it is perfectly in their right to defined that as the business they offer.

Dating sites specific to a religious sect....

Churches...

Dating sites specific to a particular race or sexual preference....


There are examples of this everywhere.


It only takes a little more critical thought to conclude

IF a bakery chooses not to make a particular theme or themes of cake, it is perfectly within their right to defined the business they offer. That bakery would be perfectly within their right to define their business in such a manner that they don't offer those types of cakes. Others have mentioned forcing a liberal bakery to make a cake for the KKK, Anti-LGBTQ, or other hate groups also would be equally violating the "liberal" bakery owners.

None of these are protected under the Civil Rights act of 64....


You have to be very careful when considering regulations and laws like this that protect at the expense of other's choices. It is only a matter of time that the "other side" (whatever that may be) will object to something that impacts you directly and seeks protections under the same laws you supported. This time you'll be paying for that law with your freedom to make choices.

I personally don't like it... I'd rather just make the money... but as someone already stated that they would object as there's more to their business than just making money.

Last edited by usayit; 06-13-2019 at 03:53 PM..
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Old 06-13-2019, 03:42 PM
 
3,321 posts, read 642,373 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by shanv3 View Post
Meanwhile a shrewd business owner( like our famous Rachel) would bake all 2 cakes, provide great customer service, provide you discount for next visit, earn referrals and develop his business. ( While you are still thinking he is also a Maga guy like you )
Huh? I don't know where you got that. I said I would not participate in an exchange that I feel is wrong. Money isn't everything.

P.S. Although I did own a business, provided great customer service, and all the rest....just not on Saturday.
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Old 06-13-2019, 04:33 PM
 
12,644 posts, read 10,487,316 times
Reputation: 17455
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
Bolded part.... Ridiculous is a personal reaction and "feeling". I'm pretty sure the owner of the bakery probably thought it would be ridiculous to force him/her to bake a cake they didn't offer. The issue here is you are only making exceptions for things that fit nicely within your views and opinions.

If a gym chooses to not serve men, it is perfectly in their right to defined that as the business they offer.

If a bible store chooses only to sell Bibles, it is perfectly in their right to defined that as the business they offer.

Dating sites specific to a religious sect....

Churches...

Dating sites specific to a particular race or sexual preference....


There are examples of this everywhere.


It only takes a little more critical thought to conclude

IF a bakery chooses not to make a particular theme or themes of cake, it is perfectly within their right to defined the business they offer. That bakery would be perfectly within their right to define their business in such a manner that they don't offer those types of cakes. Others have mentioned forcing a liberal bakery to make a cake for the KKK, Anti-LGBTQ, or other hate groups also would be equally violating the "liberal" bakery owners.

None of these are protected under the Civil Rights act of 64....


You have to be very careful when considering regulations and laws like this that protect at the expense of other's choices. It is only a matter of time that the "other side" (whatever that may be) will object to something that impacts you directly and seeks protections under the same laws you supported. This time you'll be paying for that law with your freedom to make choices.

I personally don't like it... I'd rather just make the money... but as someone already stated that they would object as there's more to their business than just making money.
lol Here you go again with me. My post and the context with my posts before it were clear. If you again want to bring up anything else possible under the sun with me, I’m not interested in playing this game with you. Clearly you just like to argue.

You also may want to check out an earlier post of mine in which I stated as long as the courts treat discrimination cases equally when they do analyze them, as in applying to both sides of the coin, I think it’s fine and I think there is a difference between what people can and should do and what is smart business practice. A lot of decisions may be fine legally and otherwise but not exactly smart, but that would be a business owner’s decision.

Last edited by JerseyGirl415; 06-13-2019 at 04:49 PM.. Reason: a word
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:11 PM
 
Location: NNJ
9,505 posts, read 5,356,621 times
Reputation: 10459
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
lol Here you go again with me. My post and the context with my posts before it were clear. If you again want to bring up anything else possible under the sun with me, I’m not interested in playing this game with you. Clearly you just like to argue.
You clearly missed earlier in the thread when I was actually agreeing with you regarding Civil rights act and private business.. It only seems like that to you because i don't agree with you... but that's just your view. If you stop posting stuff I don't agree with then we wouldn't have a problem.. lol

You clearly like to generalize your views and opinions as if everyone should subscribe to them... usually because you simply don't like something or makes you feel "ridiculous" or puts you out of your comfort zone. But laws and discussions about rights don't revolve around how one person "feels".

As I mentioned in the other thread... you like to make exceptions or cherry-pick things according to your views and feel "goodness".

In this case, you back a gym for excluding men but clearly make exception for the bakery doing essentially the same.

In summary.. I'm not going to agree with you just to make you feel better.. you gotta do a better job of making an argument other than that it seems or feels wrong to you. Just like in the other thread, don't want to discuss or be challenged don't put it up for discussion.

Also like in the other thread.. laws are applied to everyone under a variety of situations. So if you discuss rights of a bakery, it is going to be applied to all businesses rights. So as in the other thread, rights cannot be discussed in isolation. I've already explained this many times. You don't like to discuss various situations that could be impacted by a particular legal matter, then don't participate in such discussions.

Last edited by usayit; 06-13-2019 at 05:21 PM..
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
20,331 posts, read 10,439,989 times
Reputation: 7964
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
I like the consistency here. I mean...it's consistency in promotion of slavery but getting a statist to commit to a principle (a means) vs an outcome (an ends) is pretty much a miracle.

Kudos on your shackling of the owner who must provide a virtually impossible business model (dude drops a dozen eggs and can't make a cake that day exactly like he did the day before - cage/fine ensues).
Except for the fact that he didn't refuse because he didn't have eggs, he refused because of who the cake was for.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:13 PM
 
17,747 posts, read 19,785,288 times
Reputation: 7415
I invite all Democrats to go to a Muslim Baker and ask for a cake in the image of Muhammad.... Let me know how it goes....
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