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Old 06-13-2019, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Middle of nowhere
20,331 posts, read 10,439,989 times
Reputation: 7964

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
But you are dodging the question.

Would you be offended to learn that your local Baker catered to a Klan gathering? Would you continue to use them, or would you find an alternative?

If you feel offended (and it would be entirely human to feel so), even though they were not present, you do feel there is a level of participation. If you feel there is a level of participation in this circumstance there is no logical reason to claim that under a different circumstance the Baker should not feel they are participating.
Why would I be offended because someone bought an item that a business sells? If the Klan want's to buy a cake that a baker offers for sale, then I would assume that the baker would take their money in exchange for that cake. Then again, I don;t ask who my bakers previous customers are, or ask for a customer list to see if I agree with everyone that they have sold a cake to. The only thing I'm worried about when buying a cake is the flavor, how it looks, and the price.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:17 PM
Status: "Enjoying the extended daylight." (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Suburban Dallas
46,816 posts, read 36,996,604 times
Reputation: 28328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
So once again Masterpiece Cakes in in the news because they're being sued AGAIN by liberals. This time they're refusing to make a "gender transition cake". I mean wth is that, but anyway. THey already won in the Supreme Court against a gay couple who tried to force them to make a gay wedding cake.

Now its already clear these businesses are being targeted by radical far left groups who travel the country looking for lawsuits and certain conservative or Christian businesses to target.

So what if I were to go to a bakery I know is owned by a liberal Democrat and ask that they make me a cake for July 4th, and on this cake I want them to have "Trump 2020", #MAGA, and Psalm 33:12 "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord."

Or what if I were to go to an Arab Muslim owned bakery and ask for a cake with the Israeli flag on it and a quote from the Bible saying that God will bless those who bless Israel and will curse those who curse Israel?

Should I have the right to have these cakes made? Do liberals believe this athiest, liberal or Muslim should be allowed to refuse my request?

I actually kinda want to do Example #1 on July 4 this year it would be fun.
You make an interesting point. But then, here is this thought: Why should bakeries care who's side anybody is on? They should just bake the damn cake.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:24 PM
 
Location: Columbia MO
1,714 posts, read 1,864,222 times
Reputation: 2048
quick answer...yes (Christian) and no (pro-Israel). First is a protected class (religion) while the second isn't...unless "pro-Israel" means Jewish.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:27 PM
 
9,524 posts, read 4,865,520 times
Reputation: 3870
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
It doesn't matter....

Do you think a Bible store should be forced to sell Torahs or other religious texts? Its not like the store was participating in a marriage or religious ceremony.

Do you think a dating site for religious people should be forced to accept applicants who are atheists?


The baker wasn't denying a cake they would have agreed to make to the gay couple. They were denying selling a cake of a theme or design they choose not to offer as part of their service.

You don't know what theme or design would be on the cake because they never got that far. It didn't matter to the baker if the theme and design was rainbow colored with frosting of two men kissing or a cake no different in theme than any other cake he routinely bakes. The baker didn't care if the men were gay or straight or one gay, one straight. His sincerely held religious belief prohibits him from using his talent to assist a same sex marriage. imo, the Constitution [free exercise of religion and speech is on his side.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:28 PM
 
2,247 posts, read 619,648 times
Reputation: 2353
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotHereQuickAsICould View Post
What would Jesus say about such hateful behavior?
"Let them eat cake!"
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:29 PM
 
Location: NNJ
9,500 posts, read 5,356,621 times
Reputation: 10451
Quote:
Originally Posted by case44 View Post
You make an interesting point. But then, here is this thought: Why should bakeries care who's side anybody is on? They should just bake the damn cake.
I personally think they shouldn't care and make a cake.. but legally that's their decision to make.

I personally wouldn't care much as long as I got paid ... BUT there are always lines to be drawn with me. If someone asked me to bake a cake promoting hate, I personally would refuse... I would hope that the law would allow me to refuse.

For some people, it is more than just money... there are a few people in this thread that speak to that.


Also.. people forget that businesses are known by the work/good/services they provide. A business owner may not care much about the actual content of the cake; political, sexual or otherwise but they might not want to be associated with the request. I am not a religious person... but if I were a bakery owner in a locale that is predominantly strongly religious or far right, it may not be in my business's best interest... irregardless of my personal beliefs.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Florida
22,254 posts, read 9,461,111 times
Reputation: 18182
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
But you are dodging the question.

Would you be offended to learn that your local Baker catered to a Klan gathering? Would you continue to use them, or would you find an alternative?

If you feel offended (and it would be entirely human to feel so), even though they were not present, you do feel there is a level of participation. If you feel there is a level of participation in this circumstance there is no logical reason to claim that under a different circumstance the Baker should not feel they are participating.
You are comparing law-abiding LGBT citizens to the Klan?

The Klan murders, lynches, terrorizes, harasses, harms, and injures INNOCENT people, and does it all maliciously. That is a ridiculous analogy.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Upstate NY
35,425 posts, read 10,481,794 times
Reputation: 33451
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Lennox 70 View Post
So once again Masterpiece Cakes in in the news because they're being sued AGAIN by liberals. This time they're refusing to make a "gender transition cake". I mean wth is that, but anyway. THey already won in the Supreme Court against a gay couple who tried to force them to make a gay wedding cake.

Now its already clear these buisinesses are being targeted by radical far left groups who travel the country looking for lawsuits and certain conservative or Christian businesses to target.

So what if I were to go to a bakery I know is owned by a liberal Democrat and ask that they make me a cake for July 4th, and on this cake I want them to have "Trump 2020", #MAGA, and Psalm 33:12 "Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord."

Or what if I were to go to an Arab Muslim owned bakery and ask for a cake with the Israeli flag on it and a quote from the Bible saying that God will bless those who bless Israel and will curse those who curse Israel?

Should I have the right to have these cakes made? Do liberals believe this athiest, liberal or Muslim should be allowed to refuse my request?

I actually kinda want to do Example #1 on July 4 this year it would be fun.

Actually, the bakery owner is being sued again by the same guy...er...dame who sued him the first two times. Another mean-spirited member of the alphabet community...

The attorney, Autumn Scardina, sued him the first time, for the same refusal to bake a custom "transgender" celebration cake. After the SCOTUS ruled in the bakery owner's favor, noting animus toward his religious beliefs, Scardina joined with the state of Colorado in another suit, which was ultimately dropped. So here comes Scardina, again, targeting the same baker for the same reason.

Yes, it IS animus. Smell a Christian, and get busy. This is nothing short of harassment-- typical of agrrieved groups, today.
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Old 06-13-2019, 05:57 PM
 
12,636 posts, read 10,487,316 times
Reputation: 17432
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
You clearly missed earlier in the thread when I was actually agreeing with you regarding Civil rights act and private business.. It only seems like that to you because i don't agree with you... but that's just your view. If you stop posting stuff I don't agree with then we wouldn't have a problem.. lol

You clearly like to generalize your views and opinions as if everyone should subscribe to them... usually because you simply don't like something or makes you feel "ridiculous" or puts you out of your comfort zone. But laws and discussions about rights don't revolve around how one person "feels".

As I mentioned in the other thread... you like to make exceptions or cherry-pick things according to your views and feel "goodness".

In this case, you back a gym for excluding men but clearly make exception for the bakery doing essentially the same.

In summary.. I'm not going to agree with you just to make you feel better.. you gotta do a better job of making an argument other than that it seems or feels wrong to you. Just like in the other thread, don't want to discuss or be challenged don't put it up for discussion.

Also like in the other thread.. laws are applied to everyone under a variety of situations. So if you discuss rights of a bakery, it is going to be applied to all businesses rights. So as in the other thread, rights cannot be discussed in isolation. I've already explained this many times. You don't like to discuss various situations that could be impacted by a particular legal matter, then don't participate in such discussions.
You are very wrong about me and it's strange. Like the other thread I really don't know why you are taking my opinions to this point when I was talking about something very specific. I didn't do a bad job making my argument, I just didn't make it broad enough for your liking and talk about issues outside what I was actually talking about. You somehow think I apply the logic I mentioned in specific situations to other situations that I did not mention, and I don't know why because I specifically motioned rent and denying service and only mentioned two types of discrimination - racial and on the basis of sexual orientation. I am genuinely baffled why you have done this to me on two threads now recently. I didn't mention other types of discrimination because my analysis differs depending on the context, and whether or not the Court has declared something to be illegally discriminatory.

I agree with a lot of what you've said, I really think you just misinterpreted me and thought I was more broadly applying my thoughts than what I intended. I actually rarely generalize and I recognize that there are a ton of different situations, I try to be as specific as possible and narrow things down to not sound as if my opinions apply to all situations. I was referring primarily to racial discrimination, which is flat out illegal. Discrimination against gay people is unfortunately not, as homosexuality is not a federally protected class, but morally I still think is is wrong for any business to deny service to someone because they are gay. I don't see that as much different than denying on the basis of race. This is just my opinion. I see the argument that it may fall within one's religion to deny making a cake for a gay couple's wedding, or something similar. Unfortunately if claiming it under the First Amendment it is seen as different than regular old homophobia/discrimination. I don't like it but the Court didn't find for the gay couple in that case and that is what it is. Plenty of people didn't like it.

If the Court has taken on a case and decided something is illegally discriminatory, as long as the result is applied equally I am okay with it, especially if based on protected classes. If the Court has not found something to be discriminatory, then of course businesses are free to do as they wish, and people are free to not patronize them as a result. That is how business works. But I think it is important for the law to step in and protect certain classes of people from at least certain types of discrimination, like denying service to all black people because they are black. I do not see this as the same thing as OB/GYNs only taking women on as patients. I would not call that discrimination that the government should step in to control and protect against like I would denying service to someone on the basis of their race. I wouldn't call it discrimination at all actually, I would call it common sense to not expect a gyno to treat a man, but you can call it what you want. I don't care if you agree with me, I wish you would stop reading into my posts what isn't there. If I don't mention it, you don't know my stance on it, so don't assume anything.
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Old 06-13-2019, 06:29 PM
 
12,104 posts, read 6,682,852 times
Reputation: 12952
Quote:
Originally Posted by jjrose View Post
Except for the fact that he didn't refuse because he didn't have eggs, he refused because of who the cake was for.
He refused because of what the cake was for.

He would have made the customer a birthday cake.
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