U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-14-2019, 12:37 PM
 
12,636 posts, read 10,483,539 times
Reputation: 17412

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
They can do what they want as long as they don't require me to be a party to it - while making a point that they are intentionally doing just that. I have Jewish friends who eat non-kosher all the time. But if they asked me for money so they could buy a shrimp cocktail, I wouldn't give it to them. I would be enabling them to do something that I myself don't do because I feel it is wrong. Why should I help them do it?

And of course the store customer doesn't tell the employees what they plan to do with the food. That's the point. In my example, and in the bakery instance, the customer made a point of telling or showing the owner that he was going to use the store product against the owner's beliefs. The store was TARGETED. It is another liberal who is badgering someone into accepting their version of what is right or wrong.
The couple did not target the bakery. They did not know the bakers would discriminate against gay people.

Religion under the 1st Amendment is an interesting loophole to get around what otherwise would be illegal discrimination. SCOTUS pointed out in that case that it is important to protect gay people who have a hard time accessing services or goods because of their sexual orientation, including marriage at the time of the events leading to the case in many states. It also said that religious freedom/protection is an important competing interest. The Court cannot question the validity or truth of what one claims is a religious belief, only whether they are sincere in their belief. So they cannot question whether it's truly a tenet of Christianity to not support gay marriage. Which is interesting, because some sects allow gay marriage (Lutheranism), some Christians individually from various sects are totally okay with it. But some are not. So on the outside, it is questionable whether being against gay marriage is truly a religious-related belief or just a personal one that people claim is religious-based to make their view sound better and more protected. Yet the Court cannot decide this.

If this guy couldn't claim religion, I bet he would have lost this case because whether people like it or not, protecting minority groups who historically had been marginalized from discrimination in public accommodations is a valid government interest that most states and the federal government tend to take pretty seriously.

The problem with this case is the possibility that in a deeply religious area, gay couples will be refused from every nearby bakery. Then they truly cannot access the same services that straight people can, on the basis of their sexual orientation, no matter how much the baker in the Masterpiece case tried to argue otherwise. It is discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, for alleged religious reasons, which is the out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-14-2019, 02:47 PM
 
10,993 posts, read 2,726,039 times
Reputation: 5092
I wonder what a Muslim bakery owner would do if you asked for a cake shaped like a pig or dog?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2019, 03:18 PM
 
7,568 posts, read 2,219,660 times
Reputation: 9128
Quote:
Originally Posted by JerseyGirl415 View Post
My values include not caring how others live their lives. I don't care if someone is gay and got married, is Catholic and had an abortion, is a practicing Jew and eats cheeseburgers. Not my life, not my problem. Not my job to impose my personal beliefs or values on them. If I were a business owner and I somehow knew these details about customers, I would not deny business to these people on those bases, no matter what my thoughts are on adhering to guidelines of one's religion or whether gay marriage should be legal.

I know that you otoh like to force people to comply with your own personal belief system.

If business owners do want to arbitrarily discriminate, as long as it isn't against settled law or new law upheld by the courts, that is fine with me. Like I said, people can live their lives. But I am allowed to question it and call it stupid if I see fit. It's my opinion.
So you would do anything for anyone just because they asked you to? Is that how you would run a business in the USA?

If you sold hammers and a man came in who you knew was going to beat his wife in the head with it, you'd sell it to him?

What if a straight couple wanted a wedding cake and a gay baker said no?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2019, 03:33 PM
 
15,087 posts, read 3,983,077 times
Reputation: 10935
If a child wants porky the pig on his cake and I am a Jew working in a bakery, I should be able to refuse and instead hand the family a paper on why they shouldn't eat and glorify pork.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2019, 03:38 PM
 
12,636 posts, read 10,483,539 times
Reputation: 17412
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
So you would do anything for anyone just because they asked you to? Is that how you would run a business in the USA?

If you sold hammers and a man came in who you knew was going to beat his wife in the head with it, you'd sell it to him?

What if a straight couple wanted a wedding cake and a gay baker said no?
If I somehow knew a man was going to buy a hammer to assault his wife with I would call the police. But the chances of a business owner ever knowing that seem pretty slim. Another dumb hypo.

Does the gay baker make wedding cakes? If he does, I don't see why he would say no. If he doesn't, he shouldn't be forced to provide a service he does not provide in the first place, for anyone else. But if he does make cakes for weddings he should make them for gay or straight couples. Does he HAVE to? Guess not. Would it be stupid to discriminate and will I personally judge him for it for being stupidly discriminatory? Yup.

Personally in a general business like a store, bakery, restaurant, hotel, etc. I would not discriminate on the basis of race, sexual orientation, religion, other similar classes. I mean, not like I could because most discrimination based on those types of classes is illegal in public businesses. But even if it weren't, I wouldn't, because I'm not an a*****e.

Last edited by JerseyGirl415; 06-14-2019 at 03:47 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-14-2019, 09:51 PM
 
3,603 posts, read 1,554,600 times
Reputation: 2524
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
Huh? I don't know where you got that. I said I would not participate in an exchange that I feel is wrong. Money isn't everything.

P.S. Although I did own a business, provided great customer service, and all the rest....just not on Saturday.
I was just complimenting Jews in general for their business acumen and hence quoted you . Instead of focusing on nonsense, they are able to keep the busniess going.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2019, 12:37 AM
 
15,517 posts, read 13,509,459 times
Reputation: 21201
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
If a child wants porky the pig on his cake and I am a Jew working in a bakery, I should be able to refuse and instead hand the family a paper on why they shouldn't eat and glorify pork.
Pretty much. If you did not offer anything to do with pork, then of course that would be acceptable and even expected.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2019, 01:53 AM
 
9,250 posts, read 10,900,804 times
Reputation: 9886
Quote:
Originally Posted by FKD19124 View Post
I think liberal bakeries should be forced to bake pro-nazi or pro-israel cakes.
Let the liberals put their money where their mouths are.
Interesting. By that same token are you insinuating that "conservative bakeries" are pro-nazi? Or that one cannot be liberal and pro-Israel?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2019, 02:08 AM
 
9,250 posts, read 10,900,804 times
Reputation: 9886
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
OK. Better example:

I have a little grocery, and I sell kosher meat in one section, and cheese in another. A secular Jew comes over and tells me he wants to buy hamburger and cheese to make cheeseburgers - obviously trying to bait me with something he knows I disapprove of. If he bought the items and never told me what they were for, fine. But if he's going to taunt me, specifically choosing a kosher store where he knows I obey the Jewish dietary laws to brag about the cheeseburgers he as a non-observant Jew is going to make with my food, NO SALE. He PURPOSELY chose my store to badger me about my beliefs, tell me I'm wrong, and participate in breaking kashrut.

He can go to any other of a dozen groceries and buy the ingredients to make cheeseburgers. Why target me?
Now this is interesting. I happen to shop at a grocery that has a strict Kosher meat section due to a large Orthodox community in the area. The butchers sell to anyone, whether the clients are Jewish (Orthodox, conservative, reform) or any other religion. And they don't care whether you're going to make a cheeseburger, throw some mayo on it, put it in the wrong side of the kitchen/sink, or what have you once they've packed the meat for you. It's out of their hands after that, so to speak.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-15-2019, 02:27 AM
 
9,250 posts, read 10,900,804 times
Reputation: 9886
Quote:
Originally Posted by PilgrimsProgress View Post
I wonder what a Muslim bakery owner would do if you asked for a cake shaped like a pig or dog?
I swear some of y'all are so hysterically funny and you don't even know why! Did the gay couple request a cake in the shape of a...(not going to say it, don't want to get kicked off)? This is right up there with calling cakes "gay" (or straight, or trans, or bi, or....).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top