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Let me tell you a story about separatism. My family has been here since the Spanish arrived and I tried my best to fit into White America. I got close. I spoke English with no accent, participated and supported cultural activities, behaved in school, etc. Yet, I was not considered part of that community. So I moved on. What culture should I have celebrated in this situation?
The reality is that educated parents, no matter where in the world they are, will want their children to possess skills, especially language skills, to be successful. My closest friends immigrated to the US as adults. Some knew English, some did not. Now they all speak English and all own their own businesses. Since they came as adults, and now speak English, and are successful, did they learn American culture? Or did they posses a culture and intelligence that allows them to adapt to whatever country they are in?
Less educated parents may not speak English. For one, they can only get low skilled jobs where their competition are other non-English speaking citizens. Or the woman may stay home and not learn English to proficiency. If they have children, their children may be bilingual if they are lucky. Chances are their children will have poor language skills in English and whatever language their parents speak. But by the 3rd generation, the children will be speaking English. Acquiring the language just took longer, 3 generations longer.
White America? Our culture isn't just about white Americans. Skin color and race are irrelevant in regards to what our identifying language and culture is.
What you are stating is not what is happening with Hispanics because they are very tribal and adamant about their culture and speaking Spanish in public. You only have to look at Miami as to non-assimilation by Hispanics. You can't even get a job in Miami unless you speak Spanish and many employment ads across the southwest require Spanish to get hired.
What you aren't factoring in is the continued large influx of illegal aliens from Spanish speaking countries. That's not a recipe for assimilation but colonization instead and they also enjoy the highest quotas for legal immigration into our country by far. What happened to diversity in our immigration numbers like when the Germans, Poles, Irish, Italian, etc. came here? Why aren't those people who keep saying that diversity is our strength complaining about this non-diversified immigration we have today?
Let me tell you a story about separatism. My family has been here since the Spanish arrived and I tried my best to fit into White America. I got close. I spoke English with no accent, participated and supported cultural activities, behaved in school, etc. Yet, I was not considered part of that community. So I moved on. What culture should I have celebrated in this situation?
The reality is that educated parents, no matter where in the world they are, will want their children to possess skills, especially language skills, to be successful. My closest friends immigrated to the US as adults. Some knew English, some did not. Now they all speak English and all own their own businesses. Since they came as adults, and now speak English, and are successful, did they learn American culture? Or did they posses a culture and intelligence that allows them to adapt to whatever country they are in?
Less educated parents may not speak English. For one, they can only get low skilled jobs where their competition are other non-English speaking citizens. Or the woman may stay home and not learn English to proficiency. If they have children, their children may be bilingual if they are lucky. Chances are their children will have poor language skills in English and whatever language their parents speak. But by the 3rd generation, the children will be speaking English. Acquiring the language just took longer, 3 generations longer.
Interesting comments. Thank you for your contribution. Where is "here?" Where did you "move on" to? Do you like where you are now?
I lived in Norway, some years ago, with Norwegian relatives. My Scandinavian family members trace their roots back to over 800 years ago. I did my best to fit in and not be viewed as an outsider American. During my time there, people were usually polite and hospitable. But it was made clear that I'd always be different, an outsider, not one of them.
The U.S. has spent well over 50 billion dollars to teach non-English speaking kids the language of the U.S. So I would venture to say these children should be able to become bilingual. But their parents have to help. One can't rely just on "luck."
I wish you happiness and contentment wherever you live.
White America? Our culture isn't just about white Americans. Skin color and race are irrelevant in regards to what our identifying language and culture is.
What you are stating is not what is happening with Hispanics because they are very tribal and adamant about their culture and speaking Spanish in public. You only have to look at Miami as to non-assimilation by Hispanics. You can't even get a job in Miami unless you speak Spanish and many employment ads across the southwest require Spanish to get hired.
What you aren't factoring in is the continued large influx of illegal aliens from Spanish speaking countries. That's not a recipe for assimilation but colonization instead and they also enjoy the highest quotas for legal immigration into our country by far. What happened to diversity in our immigration numbers like when the Germans, Poles, Irish, Italian, etc. came here? Why aren't those people who keep saying that diversity is our strength complaining about this non-diversified immigration we have today?
It is interesting that you bring up Miami. All of my immigrant friends, who came from the East and not the South, all own businesses in Miami. They do not speak Spanish.
All those south Americans keep coming in because businesses give them jobs and we are closest geographically. The Poles are going to Western Europe. And since you want to move the discussion away from White America, please be specific about the culture of America. I already gave an explanation about the language situation.
Interesting comments. Thank you for your contribution. Where is "here?" Where did you "move on" to? Do you like where you are now?
I lived in Norway, some years ago, with Norwegian relatives. My Scandinavian family members trace their roots back to over 800 years ago. I did my best to fit in and not be viewed as an outsider American. During my time there, people were usually polite and hospitable. But it was made clear that I'd always be different, an outsider, not one of them.
The U.S. has spent well over 50 billion dollars to teach non-English speaking kids the language of the U.S. So I would venture to say these children should be able to become bilingual. But their parents have to help. One can't rely just on "luck."
I wish you happiness and contentment wherever you live.
Hello. Thank you for your kind reply and your interest.
"Here" is the United States, specifically a small town in Texas. I moved out of Texas. Whenever I go back to my hometown, I have to put on the Texas act to not be treated like an illegal immigrant who just sneaked over the Rio Grande. That is the best I can hope for.
Don't get me wrong. I love Texas and want to move back just not where I grew up. They are making big changes in education in regards to competitive sports so there is definitely a cultural shift. If money starts shifting to these new 'sports' and away from physical sports, I am sure there will be people who complain that their culture is disappearing.
When I say luck, I mean that the parents received a good education in their native tongue. A child has a better chance of learning English to proficiency if their parents are proficient in their native language. If a parent is not proficient in Spanish, for example, chances are the child will not be proficient in English or in Spanish.
ETA: My husband is from Sweden. When we were deciding if we should move there (Sweden) he said it needed to happen before our daughter started elementary school. Otherwise, she would always be considered an outsider. I would like to move now to challenge what he says but I don't want to treat my daughter as an experiment.
Sure you know what romanticism I’m talking about.
Again, 700 German daily newspapers in 1915. Come on man...that’s not an insignificant number. That’s a LOT of proficiency in the German language LONG after Germans had been here. That’s holding pretty hard onto your culture. Language is a major part of culture. Like, about half of it.
To produce that many newspapers, that means that many Germans weren’t assimilating. They were living in enclaves with their own ethnic groups by and large.
When a Hispanics do that, it’s called out as intentionally refusing to assimilate.
I don't romanticized my ancestors' immigration to the U.S., DD. As I mentioned, most of them clawed their way out of famine and poverty in both Europe and the U.S. Destitution recognizes no racial or religious boundaries.
Of course that's a significant number of German papers. If those Germans weren't assimilating into the U.S., they should have been. The same goes for any group of immigrants to any country.
If a Hispanic person refuses to speak English to English-speaking customers who order a meal, buy groceries or bark mulch, or pick up a prescription, yes, they're intentionally refusing to assimilate. It's also a good way to get fired, unless you're protected by a PC-obsessed culture.
As an aside, EVERY Middle Eastern, African, or Asian person I've come across in the U.S. has done their utmost to learn English, except for a few very elderly people. And they have self-pride in doing so. The owner of one of my favorite Moroccan restaurants knows Arabic, Berber, English, and a bit of French. He goes to his mosque and celebrates July 4th. He hovers over his children to do their homework. He seems to have no problem retaining much of his original culture and blending it with his new one. I wish all immigrants were like him.
Hello. Thank you for your kind reply and your interest.
"Here" is the United States, specifically a small town in Texas. I moved out of Texas. Whenever I go back to my hometown, I have to put on the Texas act to not be treated like an illegal immigrant who just sneaked over the Rio Grande. That is the best I can hope for.
Don't get me wrong. I love Texas and want to move back just not where I grew up. They are making big changes in education in regards to competitive sports so there is definitely a cultural shift. If money starts shifting to these new 'sports' and away from physical sports, I am sure there will be people who complain that their culture is disappearing.
When I say luck, I mean that the parents received a good education in their native tongue. A child has a better chance of learning English to proficiency if their parents are proficient in their native language. If a parent is not proficient in Spanish, for example, chances are the child will not be proficient in English or in Spanish.
ETA: My husband is from Sweden. When we were deciding if we should move there (Sweden) he said it needed to happen before our daughter started elementary school. Otherwise, she would always be considered an outsider.
Small town Texas is a hard nut to crack, Elyn. I wouldn't wish that situation on anyone. When I first moved to Texas from California, I was called commie, damn Yankee, and a host of other unsavory names. I'm certainly not comparing my treatment to yours, but I do recognize how hard, if not impossible, it is for an "outsider" to fit into a small town, especially in Texas. You're lucky you love Texas. I don't, but my husband's career kept us here, and now I can't afford to return to my beloved hometown in California.
I'm not sure what you mean about sports, but I loathe the football worshipping mentality in Texas. Ugh!
Even if a Hispanic child's parents don't know English, it would behoove them to encourage, and help, their child study and learn English, without which the child's future options will be greatly limited.
Did you move to Sweden? If so, how do you like it there?
Small town Texas is a hard nut to crack, Elyn. I wouldn't wish that situation on anyone. When I first moved to Texas from California, I was called commie, damn Yankee, and a host of other unsavory names. I'm certainly not comparing my treatment to yours, but I do recognize how hard, if not impossible, it is for an "outsider" to fit into a small town, especially in Texas. You're lucky you love Texas. I don't, but my husband's career kept us here, and now I can't afford to return to my beloved hometown in California.
I'm not sure what you mean about sports, but I loathe the football worshipping mentality in Texas. Ugh!
Even if a Hispanic child's parents don't know English, it would behoove them to encourage, and help, their child study and learn English, without which the child's future options will be greatly limited.
Did you move to Sweden? If so, how do you like it there?
Your post made me smile.
Yes, small town Texas is tough but I experienced it as a child, so I did not understand what was happening. Your treatment in Texas was different than mine due to political party. I was raised amongst Republicans and I know how to talk the talk. I also lean in that direction so there really is no pretending on my part.
I love football especially in Texas but I was referring to STEM related competitive sports, like robotics. Educated parents will always encourage and help their child study English. I was referring to parents from Central and South America who did not receive a good education even in their native tongue.
No. We did not move to Sweden. I do like Sweden and I always manage to make "friends" when I am there. There is one thing I am proud of and that is picking up other cultures quickly. I like Swedish culture, especially parenting culture. My friends and I share the same values in parenting with many Swedes.
Everyone says that about their ancestors. History however says that this wasn’t the norm, but the exception.
Most non English speaking immigrants to this country clung HARD to their language and culture. Super hard. The largest ethnic group in this country is German. The peak of German immigration was around 1870. Dropped super fast after that.
Yet at the dawn of WW1, there were 700 German newspapers in the United States. That’s about a 45 year span...not to mention that this country was probably at least half German upon our 1776 independence declaration.
So the romanticism surrounding European immigrants is mostly fantastic. Your ancestors may have been eager to learn English upon arrival, but that was the rare exception.
The peak of immigrants from Germany proper may or may not have peaked in 1870. I can’t speak to that. However, I’m involved in genealogy and know there was a massive immigration after that by ethnic Germans from Russia and from the Austro-Hungarian Empire.
Russia for example:
Quote:
The upper Great Plains in the United States and southern Manitoba and Saskatchewan have large areas populated primarily by descendants of Germans from Russia...
Their mother tongues were High German or Low German dialects, despite their having lived in Russia for multiple generations. The Germans in Russia frequently lived in ethnic German communities, where they maintained German-language schools and German churches. They were primarily Volga Germans from the lower Volga River valley, Black Sea Germans from the Crimean Peninsula/Black Sea region, or Volhynian Germans from the governorate of Volhynia in contemporary Ukraine...
Large-scale immigration to the Americas started in the 1870s and continued until the 1917 Revolution, when travel and emigration were stopped.
From the Austrian-Hungarian Empire, the huge number of immigrants from Burgenland (in present day Austria) and ethnic Germans in Galizien (now part of Poland and the Ukraine) started in the 1890s, was interrupted by WWI and continued in the 1920s.
I liked Norway, very much. The rugged geography, beautiful outdoor spaces, standard of living (especially for children), low population, charming architecture, and calm spirit of the Norwegians were quite appealing. But I wouldn't choose to live there. The climate was very difficult to endure -- too much darkness and cold. Also, I found the country to be rather monotonous, even bland -- everyone seemed too similar in personality and how they lived. There was nothing wrong with Norway, but it just didn't grab me. Like being in a petting zoo instead of an African savannah -- the first is safe and clean and well-regulated, but somewhat dull. The second is wild and wondrous and riveting. Anyway, I liked my time in Norway but didn't want to spend the rest of my life there.
Status:
"It Can't Rain All The Time"
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Location: North Pacific
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl_G
Do you have to remind Americans every day that we are not like other countries? The only people who are native to the United States are the American Indians. The original culture in the United States was British so unless we are going to return back to British rule I don’t understand what everyone wants to return back to?
America is nothing but a melting pot. All of the things that make America what it is our music culture every thing is derived from one big melting pot. The United States is the one shining example in the world that shows multiculturalism works. Yet somehow we spend our after hour day after day debating on how to ruin it how to destroy it?
Why build A house and fortify it with the military from outside intruders just to destroy it from the inside?
Quote:
Do you have to remind Americans
Yes, even the majority of those whose ancestry to other countries predate Ellis Island and thereafter.
I can not find a clip for this or an article so as to narrow the point on migration to the u.s.
"in our neighborhood i knew of no kid that i associated with, whose parents were born in America, nobody"
If multiculturalism is a nation killer the u.s. would not have risen to the powerhouse it is today.
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but I was referring to STEM related competitive sports, like robotics. Educated parents will always encourage and help their child study English. I was referring to parents from Central and South America who did not receive a good education even in their native tongue.
