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Old 06-25-2019, 02:21 PM
 
7,578 posts, read 2,225,450 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
There is nothing contradictory about my remarks.

Misinformation is rife at the middle-school and junior high school level. Programs like the one we are discussing are meant to battle that misinformation.

Why would you suggest that they had NO help? Does HELP mean that adults wanted to spread misinformation? I mean, clearly that is something that YOU love to do, but I would think that the adults who provided assistance to these teens weren't operating under your agenda, but actually wanted to help kids.

Yes, I keep mentioning compassion. Which has everything to do with the topic. This thread is about the American Library Association actually thinking about the the impact that different influences can have on children. You know, like a beloved book telling a child that the only good Indian is a dead Indian might be something that a parent should instruct the child is a bad statement. And while Laura Ingalls Wilder may have been no different than many others in the era in which she lived, and may have been generally a very nice person, a parent still needs to make clear to a child that some of her biases were not justified, and that hating someone because of their race or ethnicity or even because of the way they like to dress, is wrong. Hence, the American Library Association supporting a group of cross-dressers (drag queens) who want to do something good, like read books to children, and who shouldn't be denigrated or hated because of the way they like to dress. It's a little something called empathy. Books help children develop empathy. So it stands to reason that the American Library Association supports empathy. Which is something we need way more of in the United States. Less hatred, more empathy.
The library? Is supposed to offer information to everyone. it is NOT supposed to tell us how we should FEEL about it. When reading Little House books, it is about history. Times were different. It's learning, critical thinking and putting language into context. It's great for kids understanding of the world around them. Makes them think.

Drag queens are pandering. Absolute pandering and makes a certain population *feel good* about how cool and tolerant and funky and hip they are. And then they want to tell everyone else to feel the same way. Do you want to start dictating emotions? Demanding people react the way YOU think is appropriate?

Because that's exactly what you are telling me. That I should feel "emotion A" and "behave A" because YOU think it's the only reaction that is appropriate.

Know what children need to know? Be kind and respectful. That's it. No drag queen hour needed for that. Not wanting a drag queen to read to kids has nothing to do with hatred. At all. Not wanting a safe sex presentation for young kids has, again, nothing to do with hatred. It's inappropriate. It's pandering. And, again, makes a certain segment of the population feel diverse and trendy and cool. But showing kids how to use condoms and dental dams? Does NOTHING for their self worth. At all. Doesn't build character. Doesn't make them think. Doesn't make them better people.

It doesn't do what you think it does.

And that's where arguments like yours fail.
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Old 06-25-2019, 02:31 PM
 
40,107 posts, read 24,350,113 times
Reputation: 12619
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
The library? Is supposed to offer information to everyone. it is NOT supposed to tell us how we should FEEL about it. When reading Little House books, it is about history. Times were different. It's learning, critical thinking and putting language into context. It's great for kids understanding of the world around them. Makes them think.

Drag queens are pandering. Absolute pandering and makes a certain population *feel good* about how cool and tolerant and funky and hip they are. And then they want to tell everyone else to feel the same way. Do you want to start dictating emotions? Demanding people react the way YOU think is appropriate?

Because that's exactly what you are telling me. That I should feel "emotion A" and "behave A" because YOU think it's the only reaction that is appropriate.

Know what children need to know? Be kind and respectful. That's it. No drag queen hour needed for that. Not wanting a drag queen to read to kids has nothing to do with hatred. At all. Not wanting a safe sex presentation for young kids has, again, nothing to do with hatred. It's inappropriate. It's pandering. And, again, makes a certain segment of the population feel diverse and trendy and cool. But showing kids how to use condoms and dental dams? Does NOTHING for their self worth. At all. Doesn't build character. Doesn't make them think. Doesn't make them better people.

It doesn't so what you think it does.

And that's where arguments like yours fail.
I'm not telling what you should feel or how to behave.

I will say that your assertion that "drag queens are pandering" is simply your opinion. Have at it. I have a different opinion. If you don't like being challenged, that's your problem. Like, for instance, your assertion that a program for teens which as a portion of its content addressed safe sex is inappropriate. That assertion merits challenge. I challenged it. You haven't refuted anything that I've said. You haven't refuted that as children enter puberty, sex is something that children are interested in knowing more about. You haven't refuted that there is massive misinformation that children of this age are exposed to. You haven't refuted that the program's intent was to provide information. I really don't think this program discussed dental dams. That would be yet another example of your overblown rhetoric, which you resort to whenever you don't have a factual rebuttal. YOU are trying to trigger an emotional response. And then you write about how emotion has no place in the discussion. Maybe you should edit your own posts, because you are certainly trying to elicit emotional responses.

In the meantime, exposing children to people they might otherwise not be exposed to, like drag queens, may make them more tolerant and may help them develop empathy. And that does make them better people.
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Old 06-25-2019, 02:43 PM
 
10,089 posts, read 6,314,583 times
Reputation: 8395
So, we need a man, dressed as a woman, exaggerating femininity to entertain children? How would a kid benefit from that? Why not a drag king, a woman dressed as a man, exaggerating masculinity? Exaggerated gender roles, in the form of satire, may be funny for adults. But, kids aren't going to get the exaggerations, so why even go there.
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Old 06-25-2019, 02:43 PM
 
7,578 posts, read 2,225,450 times
Reputation: 9129
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I'm not telling what you should feel or how to behave.

I will say that your assertion that "drag queens are pandering" is simply your opinion. Have at it. I have a different opinion. If you don't like being challenged, that's your problem. Like, for instance, your assertion that a program for teens which as a portion of its content addressed safe sex is inappropriate. That assertion merits challenge. I challenged it. You haven't refuted anything that I've said. You haven't refuted that as children enter puberty, sex is something that children are interested in knowing more about. You haven't refuted that there is massive misinformation that children of this age are exposed to. You haven't refuted that the program's intent was to provide information. I really don't think this program discussed dental dams. That would be yet another example of your overblown rhetoric, which you resort to whenever you don't have a factual rebuttal. YOU are trying to trigger an emotional response. And then you write about how emotion has no place in the discussion. Maybe you should edit your own posts, because you are certainly trying to elicit emotional responses.

In the meantime, exposing children to people they might otherwise not be exposed to, like drag queens, may make them more tolerant and may help them develop empathy. And that does make them better people.
Not telling me how to feel? How many times have you mentioned compassion and empathy? You keep banging that drum, then pretend you aren't the one bringing up emotion.

You are demanding that others act the way you WANT them to act. You demand that the way to learn empathy is to go watch a drag queen read. Which makes no sense, because well, it's only a straight man wearing a costume, right? Are you promoting empathy for straight men? Or empathy for costumes?

In which case, why not just go to Disney and hang out with the princesses and characters? More people in costume. Nothing to see, just "entertainment" right? Except it's not about the "costume" is it. No, it's about what the costume represents and what the costume is associated with. At least be honest about what is going on.

BTW, children don't get taught "empathy" by exposure. They are taught empathy by learning to be kind and respectful. And you can be respectful to those you disagree with. The most racist people I have ever met live in big cities, where they interact with and are exposed to lots of different cultures. Go figure.

GO back and read how many times you've posted compassion and empathy. Then lecture me about "using emotion." Total fail.
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Old 06-25-2019, 02:55 PM
 
40,107 posts, read 24,350,113 times
Reputation: 12619
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
Not telling me how to feel? How many times have you mentioned compassion and empathy? You keep banging that drum, then pretend you aren't the one bringing up emotion.

You are demanding that others act the way you WANT them to act. You demand that the way to learn empathy is to go watch a drag queen read. Which makes no sense, because well, it's only a straight man wearing a costume, right? Are you promoting empathy for straight men? Or empathy for costumes?

In which case, why not just go to Disney and hang out with the princesses and characters? More people in costume. Nothing to see, just "entertainment" right? Except it's not about the "costume" is it. No, it's about what the costume represents and what the costume is associated with. At least be honest about what is going on.

BTW, children don't get taught "empathy" by exposure. They are taught empathy by learning to be kind and respectful. And you can be respectful to those you disagree with. The most racist people I have ever met live in big cities, where they interact with and are exposed to lots of different cultures. Go figure.

GO back and read how many times you've posted compassion and empathy. Then lecture me about "using emotion." Total fail.
I'm not pretending that I'm not bringing up emotion. I am most certainly bringing up empathy. Because the world needs more empathy. And because books develop empathy. This thread is about books.

No, you are the one pretending that you aren't bringing up emotion. And then over and over and over you try to trigger emotional responses. Dental dams? Really? That was all you.

I didn't demand that the way to learn empathy is to go watch a drag queen read. Maybe you don't have good reading comprehension. I argued (no demands---"demand" by the way is a trigger word) that meeting someone like a drag queen could develop empathy. Meeting people who are different from yourself. Realizing that such people can be nice and friendly and helpful might allay some of the fear and hatred we have for people who are different.

And children are most certainly taught empathy by exposure. Sometimes that exposure is in real life. Sometimes that exposure is through the stories we are told. Books, movies, and stories can all expose us to people and ideas that we don't get to experience in real life. That's why books are so integral to the development of empathy. Which is something we want our children to develop.
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Old 06-25-2019, 03:00 PM
 
7,578 posts, read 2,225,450 times
Reputation: 9129
Quote:
Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge View Post
I'm not pretending that I'm not bringing up emotion. I am most certainly bringing up empathy. Because the world needs more empathy. And because books develop empathy. This thread is about books.

No, you are the one pretending that you aren't bringing up emotion. And then over and over and over you try to trigger emotional responses. Dental dams? Really? That was all you.

I didn't demand that the way to learn empathy is to go watch a drag queen read. Maybe you don't have good reading comprehension. I argued (no demands---"demand" by the way is a trigger word) that meeting someone like a drag queen could develop empathy. Meeting people who are different from yourself. Realizing that such people can be nice and friendly and helpful might allay some of the fear and hatred we have for people who are different.

And children are most certainly taught empathy by exposure. Sometimes that exposure is in real life. Sometimes that exposure is through the stories we are told. Books, movies, and stories can all expose us to people and ideas that we don't get to experience in real life. That's why books are so integral to the development of empathy. Which is something we want our children to develop.
Do you know what empathy is? No one can have empathy. It's illogical. Compassion yes, empathy? No.

A drag queen is just someone is costume right? Someone playing a part. So it's like meeting Pappa Smurf or Mickey Mouse. Do you think meeting Pappa Smurf or Micky Mouse promotes "empathy"?

Drag queens don't walk around town in hair, makeup, evening wear and high heels do they? When would a child EVER encounter a drag queen in real life? At the grocery store? Or at a night club (which of course wouldn't happen if they had decent parents)?

Or does a drag queen represent something else?
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Old 06-25-2019, 03:36 PM
 
40,107 posts, read 24,350,113 times
Reputation: 12619
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
Do you know what empathy is? No one can have empathy. It's illogical. Compassion yes, empathy? No.

A drag queen is just someone is costume right? Someone playing a part. So it's like meeting Pappa Smurf or Mickey Mouse. Do you think meeting Pappa Smurf or Micky Mouse promotes "empathy"?

Drag queens don't walk around town in hair, makeup, evening wear and high heels do they? When would a child EVER encounter a drag queen in real life? At the grocery store? Or at a night club (which of course wouldn't happen if they had decent parents)?

Or does a drag queen represent something else?
Do YOU know what empathy is? Because of course someone can have empathy.
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Old 06-25-2019, 03:37 PM
 
Location: Newport Beach, California
33,271 posts, read 20,093,139 times
Reputation: 12992
Thread is not all about drag queens, it is also about "little house" books.
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Old 06-25-2019, 03:50 PM
 
Location: A tropical island
4,566 posts, read 4,435,043 times
Reputation: 11220
Quote:
Originally Posted by newtovenice View Post
What I've always found odd is that drag queens are the absolute epitome of stereotyping women. Like entertainment by blackface minstrels, which is considered beyond offensive.

Yet feminists embrace drag queens.

More cognitive dissonance.
Pigs must be flying, and Hades has frozen over, because I agree with you!
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Old 06-25-2019, 03:55 PM
 
7,578 posts, read 2,225,450 times
Reputation: 9129
Quote:
Originally Posted by kayanne View Post
Pigs must be flying, and Hades has frozen over, because I agree with you!
Broken clock is right 2x a day. And somewhere there is a monkey typing a sentence ...
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