Is there anyone here that does not believe the Holocaust happened?

[kanonka]

Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA

Don't listen to your feelings, then. I've criticized those very laws many a time on this board.

Fair enough. Then let's make peace on this topic.

Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA

On a principal level, they're not very well aligned with Western ideals. Pragmatically, seeing as it's only neo-Nazis who are actually hurt by them, I can't say I care overly much, either.

Uh, no. It's not just "neo-Nazis", that's the problem. Also, these very laws are making a disservice to Jews themselves. People don't like any privileged group. These laws make Jews such a privileged group, raising questions like "why it's ok to deny any other atrocity, but not this one?", which, in turn, promotes anti-Jews narrative instead of calming it.

Here is an example from similar case. Few years ago in Russia some nuts decided to run provocation in church. The correct reaction would have been to just keep them as such - nuts, and do nothing. Instead, Russian govt decided to implement sort of "hate speech" law, but ... applicable only to religious groups. That was the stupidest reaction they could ever come up with - just on par with these "Holocaust denials" laws. The consequences? Churches started to take on too much, pretending they are "victims", and that caused uproar in a country. I guarantee same will happen to "Holocaust denials" laws.

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by craigiri

What happened where? And to who?

What happened yesterday in the USA? Today?

I guess some people specialize in being obtuse.


Thanks for your deflection and admission that you can't define the Holocaust just the same.

Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA

No one can tell what Caesar ate for breakfast the day he crossed the Rubicon. So?

That's now twice you've deflected.

Odd that you can't say what happened during the Holocaust.

Originally Posted by mgkeith

What, exactly, is the point that you are trying to make? Yes, there is evidence of real crematoria.

Yes, I know. I visited Dachau. I stood right in front of the crematoria and took photos of them if you want to see them.

Originally Posted by mgkeith

There are films of the crematoria, with bodies still in them.

Why wouldn't there be bodies in them?

Do you understand that for about the first 60 years of the 20th Century the only way to combat Typhus in the 1st World was to cremate the bodies?

Do you understand that right now in the 21st Century there are still countries that burn Typhus victims?

Well, now you learned something new.

You can look at the Cincinnati Star, Cincinnati Post, Cincinnati Enquirer et al and see photos of Typhus victims being stacked up in the streets and had kerosene poured on them and burned.

A couple of two or three Typhus plagues swept through Cincinnati between 1915-1925.

You can't bury Typhus victims, because all you do is contaminate the ground water and infect more people.

Near the end of the war, Typhus, along with Dysentery and Cholera regularly swept through the camps and killed 100s of 1,000s of Jews, but that happens when British and US bombers are blowing open sewer and water lines with their bombs.

Originally Posted by mgkeith

Yes, there are films of people being shot into mass graves, being chased around for sport, first. Being starved to death, worked to death.

Sure. You can read about the exploits of Reserve Police Battalion 101.

They were police in the city of Hamburg who were called up to active duty and operated in the area of Poland under German control. They massacred whole villages. It's well documented.

No one, well, at least no rational person, would dispute that. One of the things the book explores and attempts to answer is how could ordinary men, and they were ordinary men, because they were civilian police and not soldiers, perpetrate those crimes.

[Dane_in_LA]

Originally Posted by Mircea

That's now twice you've deflected.

Odd that you can't say what happened during the Holocaust.

I tire of this silly pseudointellectual tactic of yours. I can say what happened during the Holocaust as well as anyone can say what happened during, say, the US Civil War. Both events are well described and well documented. You an probably find 3 feet of shelf space in any decent research library covering either subject. And both have historians offering diverse perspectives.

But OK - what do you want to know that's not covered in, say, Encyclopedia Britannica's entry on the subject?

"Holocaust, Hebrew Shoʾah (“Catastrophe”), Yiddish and Hebrew Ḥurban (“Destruction”), the systematic state-sponsored killing of six million Jewish men, women, and children and millions of others by Nazi Germany and its collaborators during World War II."

That happened.

[limaman]

Originally Posted by Dane_in_LA

The German Jews were always a very small minority - only about half a million in 1933, and over half made their way out before the Nazis started putting them in camps. The majority of the victims were from Eastern Europe, particularly Poland. And the extermination camps were not in Germany, but in occupied territory.

If you're told that your country is the good guys, it's quite easy to make yourself believe that the Meyers down the street must have moved.

The Meyers might have moved but why do you live in their apartment and using their silverware’s?
Are you truly Dane and did you get a chance to speak with older people who lived during those times?
I did and was brought up by a French WW 2 POW.
We all know what took place in Europe between 1933/1945.
Yes, the Holocaust happened and yes millions of Jews, communists, résistants, homosexuals, artists people with disabilities, Slavic, romanichels died in the camps.
Enough with the lies already and the shifting of blame.
As far as the occupied countries, such as Poland, France, even Italy to a certain extend, the population were terrified by the Nazi.
Also, there were people there who hated the Jews and were pro Nazi, as well. Plus, some people were just greedy and denounced and abused others for financial gains.
Poland is getting a raw deal right now. Yes, the camps were located there but it is not because the Germans thought highly of them. It is to conceal what they were doing. Although, I believe that by 1943, the cat was out of the bag.
Look at what is happening today in the USA at the southern border. Ugly, ugly, ugly.
Are you blaming all Texans? Of course not.
Same crap, different location.

[Dane_in_LA]

Originally Posted by limaman

The Meyers might have moved but why do you live in their apartment and using their silverware’s?
Are you truly Dane and did you get a chance to speak with older people who lived during those times?

I am, and I am most certainly not apologizing for the Germans - merely pointing out that the human capacity for refusing to acknowledge unpleasant facts seems limitless.

[Jo48]

My FIL fought in Germany during WW2. MIL said he would wake up screaming in the middle of the night for the rest of his life.

One day while I was alone with him, he started telling me of his war experiences. VERY Graphic. His unit liberated Buchenwald. He described the camp in very vivid detail (not detailing it), including the stench from a great distance away. He said the soldiers were vomiting on entering the camp. People in the area were oblivious to this? FIL was of German heritage. His words to me about that I will remember for the rest of my life. "The blood of these Monsters runs through my veins".

All a fabric of his imagination?