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Old Yesterday, 09:24 AM
 
12,273 posts, read 9,910,942 times
Reputation: 15874

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Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
Sorry folks....women are not entitled to only be hit on by those they want to be hit on by. Weird inappropriate comments, guys being persistent and guys who get a bit creepy are annoying or unpleasant no doubt but they are not doing anything illegal.
Agreed. But wouldn't it be cool if people learned not to be That Guy?

Quote:
You cannot stop unattractive or unappealing men from making advances. It is also definitely not right to label them as some kind of sexual offenders because these guys make you uncomfortable.
Why not? What is a label? A sexually active young woman is "labelled" a *****. A ****.

Quote:
Live with it and deal with it, that is life.
Why? Why NOT try to change it? Because it is uncomfortable to the creeps? Screw them.
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Old Yesterday, 09:25 AM
 
12,273 posts, read 9,910,942 times
Reputation: 15874
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
Your original cartoon can also be applied here...

From my understanding it happens far more than you might think.
So PLEASE share with us the credible evidence that it does. Because we could use it.
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Old Yesterday, 09:34 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,601 posts, read 5,387,580 times
Reputation: 10497
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
So PLEASE share with us the credible evidence that it does. Because we could use it.
You know very well that it is difficult to ascertain this but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen to a even a frequent basis.

Also.... why is credible evidence not required before the metoo movement goes all out on a person accused? If you ask for credible evidence in my statement but don't demand the same in the other then you are playing into my point earlier. Even in this discussion, I'm taking a supportive stance for the original intent of the metoo movement while also advocating for male roles also to be included.... and now you have me at a defensive stance... ie exclusionary.

The biggest threat to movements such as metoo is from within.....

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publicatio...aspx?ID=191920

"This investigation is a case study of one police agency in a small metropolitan area in the Midwestern United States. This city was picked because it offered an almost model laboratory for studying false rape allegations. False rape allegations were investigated from 1978 to 1987. A ranking police official notified the investigators whenever a rape charge was declared false and provided records of the case. In the study, 41 percent of the total disposed rape cases were officially declared false"

Most of my friends are women.... I was very supportive of the former feminist movement and still supportive/advocate for women's rights. This is a very frequent discussion and particularly important topic for us specifically (different topic all together). We always say that "one rape victim is too many". I would also argue one "Brian Banks" is too many.

I am advocating that the metoo movement, in order to spark change, needs to be inclusionary not exclusionary. This means not only addressing victims of rape (MALE and FEMALE) but also addressing the issue of false accusations. False accusations hurt the movement itself more so than any single account of rape.
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Old Yesterday, 09:39 AM
 
12,273 posts, read 9,910,942 times
Reputation: 15874
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
You know very well that it is difficult to ascertain this but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen to a even a frequent basis.
Interestingly it is not hard to ascertain the frequency of actual assault and harassment.

Quote:
Also.... why is credible evidence not required before the metoo movement goes all out on a person accused? If you ask for credible evidence in my statement but don't demand the same in the other then you are playing into my point earlier. The biggest threat to movements such as metoo is from within.....
Go forth and google, my friend.


Quote:
https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publicatio...aspx?ID=191920

"This investigation is a case study of one police agency in a small metropolitan area in the Midwestern United States. This city was picked because it offered an almost model laboratory for studying false rape allegations. False rape allegations were investigated from 1978 to 1987. A ranking police official notified the investigators whenever a rape charge was declared false and provided records of the case. In the study, 41 percent of the total disposed rape cases were officially declared false"

Most of my friends are women.... this is a very frequent discussion and particularly important topic for us specifically. We always say that "one rape victim is too many". I would also argue one "Brian Banks" is too many.
Thanks for the link. I will look into it further.

I certainly would not argue that one Brian Banks is enough to shut down the entire conversation around assault and harassment.
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Old Yesterday, 09:51 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,601 posts, read 5,387,580 times
Reputation: 10497
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
Interestingly it is not hard to ascertain the frequency of actual assault and harassment.
A crime that goes through the entire legal process from arraignment to conviction leaves a very formal and easily traced paper trail through our legal system.

The opposite isn't true...

Even the abstract that I linked has a very important statement about the study (investigator here means those that are running the study)

"A ranking police official notified the investigators whenever a rape charge was declared false and provided records of the case."

This implies that rape charges that were declared false have no formal path through the legal system that leaves a paper trail that is easily measured/studied ascertained.
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Old Yesterday, 09:58 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,601 posts, read 5,387,580 times
Reputation: 10497
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post

Thanks for the link. I will look into it further.

There are numerous studies... but again.. it is difficult to ascertain stats around the topic of false rape accusations. There is a listing of other studies cited in a work by Philip N.S. Rumney . Not surprisingly the stats are all over the place due to the difficulty of such of a study.

However, what you can draw is that it isn't as rare as you might think.


This topic along with another I've studied over the years, Prostitution and sex work, are very difficult to get figures... because so much of the numbers that are of interest aren't actually recorded anywhere. There are times I feel that the numbers are not of interest because people simply don't want to know.... these are uncomfortable topics to talk about... and measure. The numbers we do have are from specific sources that only tell a small part of the picture.
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Old Yesterday, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Cumberland Co., TN
21,955 posts, read 21,755,752 times
Reputation: 21513
Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
Sorry folks....women are not entitled to only be hit on by those they want to be hit on by. Weird inappropriate comments, guys being persistent and guys who get a bit creepy are annoying or unpleasant no doubt but they are not doing anything illegal. You cannot stop unattractive or unappealing men from making advances. It is also definitely not right to label them as some kind of sexual offenders because these guys make you uncomfortable. Live with it and deal with it, that is life. Tired of these me too nuts. I take not a one of them seriously. Of course screaming obese blue haired feminists are kind of humorous lol.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say for most women its not about an adult being hit on by someone she is not interested in, it goes way beyond that. There is a big difference in making advances in that a man is interested in getting to know you, go on a date kind of advance and a I want to F U persistent creepy advancement. The latter can turn into actual sexual assault or rape.
People should not have to live with it or just deal with unwanted PERSISTENT sexual advances from anyone. These encounter are more than feeling uncomfortable, one is being touched in a sexual manner, being sexually assaulted or in fear of being sexually assaulted.
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Old Yesterday, 10:16 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,601 posts, read 5,387,580 times
Reputation: 10497
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb and say for most women its not about an adult being hit on by someone she is not interested in, it goes way beyond that. There is a big difference in making advances in that a man is interested in getting to know you, go on a date kind of advance and a I want to F U persistent creepy advancement. The latter can turn into actual sexual assault or rape.
People should not have to live with it or just deal with unwanted PERSISTENT sexual advances from anyone. These encounter are more than feeling uncomfortable, one is being touched in a sexual manner, being sexually assaulted or in fear of being sexually assaulted.
I would agree with this....

I think we need to somehow change the direction our culture/society perceives gender roles; I think we need to start with how we parent. I agree with the 2nd Paragraph of somebodynew's post 85 back in this thread. It is apparent even among my friends who I shared an early childhood in a rather tough neighborhood... there's not a lot of empathy but rather tit-for-tat or wrong/right foundation of moral code with little depth of understanding beyond that.
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Old Yesterday, 10:20 AM
 
Location: Florida
22,381 posts, read 9,502,077 times
Reputation: 18252
Calling people 'nasty feminists' is like calling people deplorable. So let's get those t-shirts ready out there!
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Old Yesterday, 10:21 AM
 
Location: 20 years from now
5,539 posts, read 5,722,945 times
Reputation: 3463
Quote:
somebodynew
Quote:
This is a difficult aspect of the conversation. What does it mean to *believe* a victim? What SHOULD it mean. It should mean that they do not face the same disbelief by so much as even talking about it as has always been the case. She should not face the regular barrage of "why didn't you just" ... and "why didn't you"... and "I would have"... that indicate clearly that the assault was her fault. It means that her whole sexual history should not be touted out to prove how she was asking for it...
Of course a victim of assault should be free from accusations, and other proclivities that conclude that they are at fault for what happened to them. Actual rape and assault victims have my full support. What comes into question is whether "something" (what ever that "thing" may be) actually happened without any supporting evidence whatsoever, and then as a result of that accusation--upending someone's entire life of work. That is a problem imo. It's not the accusation--it's more so the immediate response is where it seems to be completely unfair. Look at Kevin Spacey for example--his career thus far has been put to a grinding halt, and his life's body of work has been completely erased based on the an accusation of an event that allegedly happened 30+ years ago. He hasn't been able to find work in 2 years; every profitable piece of his work from the past has been black balled, and since then, the charges by the DA have been dropped. There's no recourse, no apology and no effort to reinstate his place back into his career. I can't help but feel sorry for the guy. Look at what happened with Brett Kavanaugh, it's pretty scary imo.

Quote:
What it isn't and should not be, obviously (or should be obvious) is enough evidence to convict in a court of law. Nor is it.
So someone should have the freedom to make slanderous or libelous accusations without the least bit of evidence and be completely free from the consequences of possibly making a false accusation? I disagree.

Quote:
I know, personally, of no instance in which this has happened. I imagine it has. But people cite things like the Kavanaugh case, and it is more than difficult to see how his entire world ended. He is a Supreme Court justice. When you seek one of the highest offices in the land, I think it is more than reasonable that credible reports are properly investigated. It is a travesty, in my mind, that this was not. This is a lifetime appointment that has far reaching effects on our law for decades to come. It is easy, on the other hand, to see how Dr Ford's entire world has ended. She had to go into hiding because of death threats.
I cited this one earlier. The idea that anyone can make an unprovable, solicitous accusation and upend someone's entire career because they feel that it's true without the slightest bit of support evidence to corroborate that, is maddening IMO. I can't stand by that. Kavanugh comes to mind when I think about situations like this.



Quote:
While I imagine this happens, this has not been my experience. Sexual harassment claims are either 1) handled really well by the employer or 2) much more likely to hustle people around to the protection of the harasser. Do you have information, evidence or cites that demonstrate this as a prevalent problem? I would be very interested in this.
I don't think I have any evidence or citation about the prevalence of false accusation, anymore than you would be able to provide that it isn't a prevalent problem.
[/quote]

Quote:
See the thing is, exploding the prevalence and effect of this is a nice way to keep the status quo. When you place the notion that harassment, assault, etc.. are a non-thing with a zero tolerance for the risk of a false report, the status quo is what you are left with.

I think it is a significant failure of the criminal justice system not to prioritize false reporting across the board. It does NO service to justice.
I have to agree. I once worked as a CPS worker, and you would not believe the number of false accusations that were made in regards to child abuse (sexual and physical) and neglect made about a parent where the source of the report was not prosecuted. Numerous reports (as many as 10) were consistently proven to be false, and the DA refused administer any form of justice for the accused. It was pretty sickening.
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