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Old Yesterday, 10:23 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
A crime that goes through the entire legal process from arraignment to conviction leaves a very formal and easily traced paper trail through our legal system.

The opposite isn't true...

Even the abstract that I linked has a very important statement about the study (investigator here means those that are running the study)

"A ranking police official notified the investigators whenever a rape charge was declared false and provided records of the case."

This implies that rape charges that were declared false have no formal path through the legal system that leaves a paper trail that is easily measured/studied ascertained.
It implies it yes. Since they claim studies, it should be simple enough to examine those studies.

Not lying. Police are not the charmed people many think they are in my mind. The police have not historically been friends to sexual assault survivors. I do not take that word as gospel.
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Old Yesterday, 10:34 AM
 
12,295 posts, read 9,916,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
There are numerous studies... but again.. it is difficult to ascertain stats around the topic of false rape accusations. There is a listing of other studies cited in a work by Philip N.S. Rumney . Not surprisingly the stats are all over the place due to the difficulty of such of a study.

However, what you can draw is that it isn't as rare as you might think.
I CAN draw that. If I WANTED to. But that is the only reason to draw such a conclusion. Because the evidence is not there.
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Old Yesterday, 10:36 AM
 
12,295 posts, read 9,916,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enigma777 View Post
Calling people 'nasty feminists' is like calling people deplorable. So let's get those t-shirts ready out there!
Sorry. Being sarcastic and did not call it out specifically. I proudly call myself feminist. Including nasty.
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Old Yesterday, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Florida
22,380 posts, read 9,507,963 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
Sorry. Being sarcastic and did not call it out specifically. I proudly call myself feminist. Including nasty.
That's ok--but I still like the idea of t-shirts.
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Old Yesterday, 10:40 AM
 
12,295 posts, read 9,916,888 times
Reputation: 15880
Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma777 View Post
that's ok--but i still like the idea of t-shirts.
:d
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Old Yesterday, 10:45 AM
 
12,295 posts, read 9,916,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2mares View Post
I'm going to go out on a limb and say for most women its not about an adult being hit on by someone she is not interested in, it goes way beyond that.
Just reading this thread, it must take some effort to even think that is what this is about.

Quote:
There is a big difference in making advances in that a man is interested in getting to know you, go on a date kind of advance and a I want to F U persistent creepy advancement. The latter can turn into actual sexual assault or rape.
People should not have to live with it or just deal with unwanted PERSISTENT sexual advances from anyone. These encounter are more than feeling uncomfortable, one is being touched in a sexual manner, being sexually assaulted or in fear of being sexually assaulted.
Or "advances" aimed at kids.....
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Old Yesterday, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Colorado
11,918 posts, read 7,341,000 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
I would agree with this....

I think we need to somehow change the direction our culture/society perceives gender roles; I think we need to start with how we parent. I agree with the 2nd Paragraph of somebodynew's post 85 back in this thread. It is apparent even among my friends who I shared an early childhood in a rather tough neighborhood... there's not a lot of empathy but rather tit-for-tat or wrong/right foundation of moral code with little depth of understanding beyond that.
Yes, changing the messages that are taught to kids is probably the first and most important thing I would like to see happen. Both in terms of parenting, and sex ed in schools. More emphasis on consent. And more effort at empathy, not just obedience to a set of rules, as the post you mention said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by danielj72 View Post
Sorry folks....women are not entitled to only be hit on by those they want to be hit on by. Weird inappropriate comments, guys being persistent and guys who get a bit creepy are annoying or unpleasant no doubt but they are not doing anything illegal. You cannot stop unattractive or unappealing men from making advances. It is also definitely not right to label them as some kind of sexual offenders because these guys make you uncomfortable. Live with it and deal with it, that is life. Tired of these me too nuts. I take not a one of them seriously. Of course screaming obese blue haired feminists are kind of humorous lol.
Obvious t-word post is obvious.

But there is something I think is always worth saying, that is what bothers me most, I think, and it speaks to this as well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by personne View Post
Nope, it's when the "movement" reveals so much of truth that most people can't stomach the reality of it.

We were numerous to tell, on this thread, and I guess, not on metoo.

Still, not heard or even listened to.

And no wealthy men involved. Just our experiences as girls, teens, women.

MOST girls, teens, women live that. Understand it. Some, once. Others, everyday. Most : always, just as they walk.. Any age, type.
...and that is the fact that I got hit on, propositioned, touched inappropriately, pinned for a kiss that one time, just all sorts of overtly sexual attention from guys of various age ranges including much older, the VAST VAST majority of that was when I was a teenager. It sharply dropped off when I was in my 20's. I didn't change in major ways, really. I show people a high school photo and I'm told I look very much the same. I did not for instance put on weight or anything. It's just somehow and for some reason, guys felt free to behave this way when I was age 12-18 or so, orders of magnitude more than they did after I was a proper adult.

A certain amount of this attention, I think was from men who might not have actually thought they were going to get sex or anything from me, they just got a bully/troll type kick out of making me uncomfortable. It turned them on and made them grin, to say something nasty to me, maybe my face would turn red, maybe I'd act afraid...oh, that's fun, that's exciting, scaring young girls!

But they're not doing anything ILLEGAL, though!! Oh and if I don't like it, I'm just being uptight, I mean, they're only joking! Come on now. All in good fun. Nevermind that it's only fun for one of the people involved and decidedly not for the other.

It is a schoolyard bully mentality at its core.

And it is my opinion that it's when girls and women don't respond as the guy wants them to, that some of them might escalate to more extreme forms of harassment, assault, sexual violence, etc. The bully needs to see his victim cry and all.

The image we put into people's minds of rape being a thing where a stranger in a ski mask pulls someone into an alley or behind a bush, and armed with a weapon, forces himself on her... We need to get away from that. The idea that only a monster would violate someone's consent, is harmful. Of course most people are gonna say that would never be them. And this image erases non-woman victims from the picture, too. It's wrong.

But I think it's the schoolyard bullies that are feeling attacked because they know deep down they've crossed boundaries before. If you really, truly know right from wrong, then you know damn well that me too is not even about you. So either you are feeling some deep level of shame or guilt for something in your life history...or maybe you're just so damn egotistical that you can't imagine anything NOT being all about you?

Again though... When it comes to false accusations ruining men, you know, I don't think that is fair either, but
1. I question what the comparison is, of men's reputations materially harmed by false accusations, vs. women's reputations materially harmed by making any accusation of a man, whether true or false. When a man is accused, some people will condemn him, many will support him, but if the case is not proven against him (which is unlikely at best) then he'll go right on to live his life, even if some people are never convinced and hate him forever. I cannot compare that to women who get death threats and worse for reporting.
2. How do you determine a false accusation? Nowadays with no universal or severe penalties, sometimes accusers recant later, but if you put penalties into place then would a false accuser ever admit it? And there is the nature of true, actual rapes, that they are often hard to prove to the standard required in court...so if you lose your case, are you determined to be a liar? Do you REALLY trust the criminal justice system to determine things to that extent? Does the accuser get a trial or is she just put in jail when her alleged rapist is declared innocent because there was not enough proof or something?

Finally, I wanted to add another point to the list of why victims often don't report...and what can happen when they do. This is being shared on multiple news sites, this is just the first one that comes up on Google.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/la-sh...b0771fb6b6cc8d
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Old Yesterday, 10:48 AM
 
12,295 posts, read 9,916,888 times
Reputation: 15880
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
I would agree with this....

I think we need to somehow change the direction our culture/society perceives gender roles; I think we need to start with how we parent. I agree with the 2nd Paragraph of somebodynew's post 85 back in this thread. It is apparent even among my friends who I shared an early childhood in a rather tough neighborhood... there's not a lot of empathy but rather tit-for-tat or wrong/right foundation of moral code with little depth of understanding beyond that.
Ayuh. I agree. There is a BALANCE that needs to be struck. We also need to lose the mindset that to be empathetic means you are a wuss. YES each person needs to learn to thicken up their skin, and as parents, we need to scaffold that. But that does NOT need to mean being a jerky tough guy or beaotch or whatever.
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Old Yesterday, 10:49 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,601 posts, read 5,387,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
It implies it yes. Since they claim studies, it should be simple enough to examine those studies.

Not lying. Police are not the charmed people many think they are in my mind. The police have not historically been friends to sexual assault survivors. I do not take that word as gospel.
Studies don't always tell the entire story... As I said, multiple studies have numbers all over the place which should give an idea the prevalence of such events under study but exact numbers not necessarily.

I've had my fair share of encounters with corrupt police and/or simply bad rotten examples of them. I myself try to keep myself in check and remind myself not all police are bad... there are some outstanding examples of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I CAN draw that. If I WANTED to. But that is the only reason to draw such a conclusion. Because the evidence is not there.

You previously touted that learning is a valuable process in your post.... Marginalizing a study because your personal views on police AND ignoring studies on your whim... cherrypicking... doesn't seem to indicate that you "walk the talk". maybe I am misreading your posts.... but i hope you keep an open mind as you move forward in this topic.

Again... my intent of posting here is to point out that the intent of the metoo movement certainly is important but execution/implementation that I see currently risks diverting away from the intent and more towards the "us vs them" notions. You have to include men and you have to address false accusations.
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Old Yesterday, 10:53 AM
 
12,295 posts, read 9,916,888 times
Reputation: 15880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Yes, changing the messages that are taught to kids is probably the first and most important thing I would like to see happen. Both in terms of parenting, and sex ed in schools. More emphasis on consent. And more effort at empathy, not just obedience to a set of rules, as the post you mention said.



Obvious t-word post is obvious.

But there is something I think is always worth saying, that is what bothers me most, I think, and it speaks to this as well...



...and that is the fact that I got hit on, propositioned, touched inappropriately, pinned for a kiss that one time, just all sorts of overtly sexual attention from guys of various age ranges including much older, the VAST VAST majority of that was when I was a teenager. It sharply dropped off when I was in my 20's. I didn't change in major ways, really. I show people a high school photo and I'm told I look very much the same. I did not for instance put on weight or anything. It's just somehow and for some reason, guys felt free to behave this way when I was age 12-18 or so, orders of magnitude more than they did after I was a proper adult.

A certain amount of this attention, I think was from men who might not have actually thought they were going to get sex or anything from me, they just got a bully/troll type kick out of making me uncomfortable. It turned them on and made them grin, to say something nasty to me, maybe my face would turn red, maybe I'd act afraid...oh, that's fun, that's exciting, scaring young girls!

But they're not doing anything ILLEGAL, though!! Oh and if I don't like it, I'm just being uptight, I mean, they're only joking! Come on now. All in good fun. Nevermind that it's only fun for one of the people involved and decidedly not for the other.

It is a schoolyard bully mentality at its core.
Yeah but that is life. That is what guys are like. Don't like it? Get over it. Tough.

Um. No.

Quote:
And it is my opinion that it's when girls and women don't respond as the guy wants them to, that some of them might escalate to more extreme forms of harassment, assault, sexual violence, etc. The bully needs to see his victim cry and all.

The image we put into people's minds of rape being a thing where a stranger in a ski mask pulls someone into an alley or behind a bush, and armed with a weapon, forces himself on her... We need to get away from that. The idea that only a monster would violate someone's consent, is harmful. Of course most people are gonna say that would never be them. And this image erases non-woman victims from the picture, too. It's wrong.
Male victims have it very, very hard. They get horrible, horrible attitude from all sides.

Quote:
But I think it's the schoolyard bullies that are feeling attacked because they know deep down they've crossed boundaries before.
Schoolyard bullies is just ONE mental modality at play. There are others.

Quote:
If you really, truly know right from wrong, then you know damn well that me too is not even about you. So either you are feeling some deep level of shame or guilt for something in your life history...or maybe you're just so damn egotistical that you can't imagine anything NOT being all about you?

Again though... When it comes to false accusations ruining men, you know, I don't think that is fair either, but
1. I question what the comparison is, of men's reputations materially harmed by false accusations, vs. women's reputations materially harmed by making any accusation of a man, whether true or false. When a man is accused, some people will condemn him, many will support him, but if the case is not proven against him (which is unlikely at best) then he'll go right on to live his life, even if some people are never convinced and hate him forever. I cannot compare that to women who get death threats and worse for reporting.
2. How do you determine a false accusation? Nowadays with no universal or severe penalties, sometimes accusers recant later,
Let's stop here for a moment and address that not all recantations even signify a genuinely false accusation. It very often signifies the cost of the report as too high to continue.

Quote:
but if you put penalties into place then would a false accuser ever admit it? And there is the nature of true, actual rapes, that they are often hard to prove to the standard required in court...so if you lose your case, are you determined to be a liar? Do you REALLY trust the criminal justice system to determine things to that extent? Does the accuser get a trial or is she just put in jail when her alleged rapist is declared innocent because there was not enough proof or something?

Finally, I wanted to add another point to the list of why victims often don't report...and what can happen when they do. This is being shared on multiple news sites, this is just the first one that comes up on Google.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/la-sh...b0771fb6b6cc8d
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