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Old 07-16-2019, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Colorado
11,899 posts, read 7,333,344 times
Reputation: 21365

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanAdventurer View Post
There is only two ironclad rules for making sexual advances toward a woman.

1. Be attractive
2. Don't be unattractive

I guess there is a corollary also: if they are clearly prepared to trade sex for something, either tell them "not interested", or give them their trade. If you take the sex and don't return the quid pro quo they are after, allegations of rape or "misconduct" will possibly follow.

oink oink OINK.
Right. Figure when the 30-something year old man who looked like my Dad pinned me against a wall when I was 12 and stuck his tongue down my throat, I cried because he just wasn't "attractive" enough?

Posts like this say to women who have experienced certain things:

"I don't believe that men actually do anything wrong, sexually, towards women."
"I mean, Rape...is it even a thing? Let's ask men what they think..."
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Old 07-16-2019, 01:54 PM
 
6,773 posts, read 6,561,864 times
Reputation: 5064
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Right. Figure when the 30-something year old man who looked like my Dad pinned me against a wall when I was 12 and stuck his tongue down my throat, I cried because he just wasn't "attractive" enough?

Posts like this say to women who have experienced certain things:

"I don't believe that men actually do anything wrong, sexually, towards women."
"I mean, Rape...is it even a thing? Let's ask men what they think..."
That sounds like rape, or an attempted one at least.

That is not how it normally goes down between men and women though. It's more akin to a high stakes negotiation than a hostile takeover.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Colorado
11,899 posts, read 7,333,344 times
Reputation: 21365
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanAdventurer View Post
That sounds like rape, or an attempted one at least.

That is not how it normally goes down between men and women though. It's more akin to a high stakes negotiation than a hostile takeover.
Hm. There's something rather amusing about someone that I presume to be male (Am I wrong?) telling me how it normally goes down between men and women. I've got quite a lot of experience in how it goes down, thanks.

Indeed, thankfully, your typical everyday sexual encounter is not a consent violation. Whew! That's gotten out of the way. But see it's a far cry from that, to saying that it just isn't a thing and it simply doesn't happen. Not every woman has been raped, but I'd say a tremendous majority of us know one who has, at the least. Personally I would not call the incident I described, a "rape" but it was a consent violation, which I appreciate as a more broad term. I have been on both sides of consent violation. The violated, and the violator. In my life history. But it's what, a couple of instances among thousands of instances of otherwise consensual sex?

The problem that women are damn tired of, is rather similar to the question of police brutality. All cops are not bad, I am sure of it. I've had great experiences with police, including once when my life was saved. But when something goes down, and your odd police officer, high on his own power, does something that is considered a CRIME if anyone not in a uniform does it... Even if there is the clearest evidence in the world, his people circle the wagons, he gets a paid vacation, he does not go to prison. A cop could be on video committing cold blooded murder of an innocent family and there is no way in hell he'd get the penalty that anyone else would. And if there isn't good evidence of what was done, no one accusing one will be believed.

Never mind feminists, I don't like using the word because people can't even agree on what it means. Renders it pointless for me. But women, and male victims, and men who have compassion for human beings who have been abused by others, decent human beings who are not bullies or trolls basically...understand that this was NEVER about saying that men are all a bunch of rapists, or ruining men. It was always about the problem that when a rape occurs, getting justice for it is next to impossible, in fact you'll be damn lucky if your life is not destroyed far more from reporting.

But hey. Guys who look at it and jump on board "Team Men Can Do No Wrong" and it just tells other people who they are. I hope that the women in their lives are listening, that's all I can say.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:14 PM
 
Location: Cumberland Co., TN
21,948 posts, read 21,747,706 times
Reputation: 21507
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanAdventurer View Post
There is only two ironclad rules for making sexual advances toward a woman.

1. Be attractive
2. Don't be unattractive

I guess there is a corollary also: if they are clearly prepared to trade sex for something, either tell them "not interested", or give them their trade. If you take the sex and don't return the quid pro quo they are after, allegations of rape or "misconduct" will possibly follow.

oink oink OINK.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Right. Figure when the 30-something year old man who looked like my Dad pinned me against a wall when I was 12 and stuck his tongue down my throat, I cried because he just wasn't "attractive" enough?

Posts like this say to women who have experienced certain things:

"I don't believe that men actually do anything wrong, sexually, towards women."
"I mean, Rape...is it even a thing? Let's ask men what they think..."
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanAdventurer View Post
That sounds like rape, or an attempted one at least.

That is not how it normally goes down between men and women though. It's more akin to a high stakes negotiation than a hostile takeover.
The way I see it both are correct. You both gave examples of extreme opposite ends.
Urban it is the high profile men who get accused in the way you describe usually by women who are out to make a buck or disturbed women.
Regular people fall into the category Sonic describes. And most fall in the middle where just you just blow off unwanted advances.

I think it is a shame the #metoo movement, IMO, started out as something good so women could express these things that happen to them that historically have been kept silenced out of misplaced shame, misplaced blame or that one would not be believed.

I have been both "hit on" by men I was not attracted to within a reasonable age range and men old enough to me by dad, even granddad. I politely tell them I'm not interested. Some accept that and other react in a nasty manner.
I have also experienced situations as Sonic described having older men make sexual advances when I was barely a teenager, and younger men making aggressive advances against my obvious rebuttals. Its frightening.
Good ironclad rules for making sexual advances is don't with a minor, EVER. and don't unless you're in a relationship or it is OBVIOUSLY mutual.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:22 PM
 
591 posts, read 98,745 times
Reputation: 550
The only thing it takes to experience attempted rape or becoming an actually victim of it is to be a woman. Sure, there are men that have been this situation, but few. I have yet to meet a single female in my life who has not been verbally abused or violated sexually in some way by a man.
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Old 07-16-2019, 02:57 PM
 
429 posts, read 90,551 times
Reputation: 340
I've had a couple of women kiss me without my consent. The trauma!! METOO!!!!!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Spork View Post
Personally I would not call the incident I described, a "rape" but it was a consent violation, which I appreciate as a more broad term. I have been on both sides of consent violation. The violated, and the violator. In my life history. But it's what, a couple of instances among thousands of instances of otherwise consensual sex?
The laws are changing in most states now - consent violation IS rape now. There is no force requirement in many states.

Last edited by mascoma; 07-16-2019 at 03:08 PM..
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:12 PM
 
Location: Colorado
11,899 posts, read 7,333,344 times
Reputation: 21365
Quote:
Originally Posted by mascoma View Post
I've had a couple of women kiss me without my consent. The trauma!! METOO!!!!!


The laws are changing in most states now - consent violation IS rape now. There is no force requirement in many states.
Did a 30-something year old woman who looked like your Mom to you pin you against a wall for a deep kiss you couldn't get away from, when you were 12?

I mean, to a 12 year old that's pretty disturbing stuff. The guy was bald, he looked "old" to me, it freaked me out. He was grinding his body on me and I couldn't get away, until he decided to let me go. Laughing. My Mom thought it was hilarious, too. She'd taken me, for some reason, to a NYE party that a coworker of hers was having. There were no other kids or teens there. We were driving home and she just thought it was hi-larious that I was crying about a guy who looked like my Dad making out with me.

Do you think it's funny, too? I sure didn't.

Being kissed without your consent as an older person, god, even a few years older, like having at least stepped off the threshold of puberty, I think would have been more than a bit different.

Of course it was only 3 years later that I was actually raped by a 28 year old guy. But that, oddly, was nowhere near as traumatic, for one thing I was already sexually active. It didn't shock, horrify and confuse me so much as it felt like I'd stepped in dog crap with a bare foot. Disgusting, sure, but you wash and you get the hell on with your life, I figured.

And frankly I don't much care how the laws are changing if the only people getting put in jail are people of color (gotta keep that state sponsored for-profit prison system slavery going) and even if there is video or eyewitnesses, the sentence for a white person is almost nothing, if anything, because "oh oh their future" and the rape kits are piling up or being destroyed with no analysis. The law can say anything at all if nobody is gonna bother to uphold it, or they won't uphold it equally anyhow, which they do not. And so long as survivors who do come forward get attacked and doxxed by men out to protect their bros and out to make a case that women are always lying about rape.

Of course it's at least as wrong that men and boys are often not believed, either, when they are victims.

And anyhow there should not need to be a requirement of force. If you don't know what consent should actually look like, then you probably shouldn't be having sex. But it doesn't surprise me in this country, where sex education is so pathetic. At worst, abstinence only, and at best a clinical discussion of reproduction, and I sure wasn't taught a damn thing about what consent really looks like. I was in my twenties before I realized that consent was something besides a thing that a woman could give or withhold from a man, "If a man wants to have sex with a woman and she says no and screams then he forces her and it's rape" was the notion I grew up with. As a teenager I didn't really understand that a male would have a right or a reason to say no, unless he was "gay or something." Huh.

No, I promise, as a woman who has "me too" stories in her background, I don't wanna ruin any guy's reputation, hell I couldn't if I tried, I never even knew the one guy's real name. That was never the point. Strong education on consent being added to sex ed curriculum though...and follow up and fair sentencing in rape cases... Now that's something worth fighting for.
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Old 07-16-2019, 04:22 PM
 
Location: Upstate NY
35,588 posts, read 10,539,502 times
Reputation: 33709
Quote:
Originally Posted by momonkey View Post
Why wouldn't it happen (getting hit on by guys you don't find appealing that is)?

Not seeing the crime here.

Yes.

It's happened. And many of us have dealt with it without feeling victimized, or having a cow because men have [gasp!] flirted with us, whistled at us, or complimented us on our appearance.

And, yes, those things are exactly what a lot of women are beeching about, trivializing true sexual abuse in the process.

Grow up, women.
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Old 07-16-2019, 07:35 PM
 
Location: Watervliet, NY
4,276 posts, read 1,579,260 times
Reputation: 7847
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
It is all just fake allegations or later regret.
You think the allegations against Larry Nassar were fake? You're a sick piece of garbage if you do.
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Old 07-16-2019, 07:40 PM
Status: "Disagreeing is not the same thing as trolling." (set 15 days ago)
 
Location: Texas
9,609 posts, read 3,676,728 times
Reputation: 19737
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miso Blu View Post
Who? Those that abuse, harass or objectify the children as well? I was 11 and men my father's age and older were calling out to me as I walked to school. Oh yeah, they sometimes "care" about children too, if that's what you mean.
My boyfriend's 12 year old daughter was followed all the way home, for several blocks, by some men in a truck who were harassing her. They only left her alone when she walked into her house and they saw the Rottweiler that lived there. Then, they drove off real fast. And she definitely looked only 12, there is no way she looked 18. (And even if she were an adult, it would have been no excuse for them to stalk her). There had been a college cheerleading camp in the area that week and it attracted a lot of strange men hanging around in the area.
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