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Old Yesterday, 08:06 PM
 
Location: Nice, France
1,094 posts, read 442,451 times
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Only time I ever tried to report rape, I was laughed at. Seriously.

And cops wanted so many details and laughed, many of them around... I fled and didn't file. I was 18, clothes thorn and crying. The streets felt safer than that police station.

Never again. I learnt Krav Maga instead.
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Old Yesterday, 08:12 PM
 
Location: southern california
55,679 posts, read 74,671,253 times
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Me too is not a movement it's a brand new weapon and both sides are using it
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Old Yesterday, 08:13 PM
 
Location: Nice, France
1,094 posts, read 442,451 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948 View Post
Me too is not a movement it's a brand new weapon and both sides are using it
Weapon against what ?
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Old Today, 05:59 AM
 
12,268 posts, read 9,910,942 times
Reputation: 15870
Quote:
Originally Posted by personne View Post
Only time I ever tried to report rape, I was laughed at. Seriously.

And cops wanted so many details and laughed, many of them around... I fled and didn't file. I was 18, clothes thorn and crying. The streets felt safer than that police station.

Never again. I learnt Krav Maga instead.
Yah definitely being able to defend oneself is important to the sense of empowerment. Hell, the reality of power. I am sorry you went through this.

The thing that gets me is all the arguments about how women and girls can and should do this and that to protect themselves. Of course they can and should. Everyone should protect themselves. But you don't see arguments of this kind with other criminal behavior in terms of minimizing it and perpetuating the non-enforcement and prosecution of the law. I was robbed at gun point! But, but false accusations of robbery! But you should have had a gun yourself! But you should not go shopping and have things that people would want to steal!

The other one that is pretty wrong headed is the well *I* would fight them off like the Tasmanian devil. That may be true. But it does not make the fact that someone else assaulted you any less bad, wrong, criminal and evil. But it also may not be true. We know about the brain's response to fear and attack. Yes fight is one of the possible responses. But so is flight and freeze. And you don't get to know or plan which response will be triggered within you. And it does not matter. We live in a world of laws. And laws are intended to protect us from assault. AND IT SHOULD.
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Old Today, 06:30 AM
 
12,268 posts, read 9,910,942 times
Reputation: 15870
Quote:
Originally Posted by personne View Post
Weapon against what ?
The perception that I have seen is that many men feel attacked simply for being men. It is only fair to recognize that this is not really their fault. They have been raised and socialize in a way that requires them to be Mr Strong Guy. Defend the home front. Defend the results of their seed. Kill the lion. They truly think that their daughter won't be treated this way because their ability to protect them is better than others. In the backs of their minds. But tell a lot of guys "not your fault" and all they hear is good, I am done here.

There is not a lot of empathy raised up in many of us as part of our moral code. (I have talked about this at some length over in parenting over the years.) Our moral codes are based around good actions and bad actions. You don't hit. You don't ... do this and that. But the focus on hearing the experience of others as an important part of ones ethical makeup and learning is not a focus. This has oft been one of my biggest objections to organized religion. Follow god's list and you get into heaven.

The problem lies in the fact that one cannot be a truly moral person without learning. Without recognizing the experience of OTHER PEOPLE.

About to go too deep for some. So let's stick to the topic. It is challenging to be told over and over that you are part of a group that has been systematically abusing people. And still feel that you are not That Guy. You KNOW you are not That Guy. Certainly not by intent. So your mental defense mechanism it to see how what is being said is wrong. But that thinking is an obstacle to learning. The desire to defend oneself is an obstacle to understanding how one might be complicit in action and inaction.

What were those guys yelling "ever tasted <penis expletive> little girl?" to my 13 year old self thinking? What were they thinking when they yelled wanna come with me and have a little fun? And worse. They were likely thinking it was just a little fun. Ha ha ha. What they were NOT thinking was ... hey, that's a little person over there. But what about the guy in the back? Yes, he was there. And all he was guilty of was not having the courage to tell his buddies that he had to work with day in and day out to **** and stop being *******s. For real, who would?

What was the guy who came into my room and raped me thinking? Well I can tell you that as he left he said, that was fun, let's do it again sometime. Hmmm. Was he thinking, that is a person. Wonder how she felt? I am going with no.

The guys defending themselves want alternately to feel that there is some right in their view, garnered from their socialization, that sex is something to get off of a woman. And that there is an objective line somewhere about what action is right and ok and what is not. This is why the simple concept of consent is so freaking hard for them. It means 1) that THEY don't get to say. THEY don't have all the power and control and 2) their targets matter.

So matter how many people do something as simple as say publicly, out loud, yeah me too. They HAVE to close their ears, hearts and minds. Because if they do not, they have to realize that they are complicit in the society that says that this is ok despite the fact that they do not cross their line.

And any woman who has ever communicated assault, harassment, sexual abuse of any kind to a man will feel a cord of truth when I say, for many men even that becomes All About Them.
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Old Today, 06:53 AM
 
Location: 20 years from now
5,539 posts, read 5,722,945 times
Reputation: 3463
the only problem that I have with Metoo is that is trial by mob rule. No substantial evidence is needed, nor are you given a chance to explain or defend yourself. It's simply on her word, however long ago it happened and you are completely at the mercy of the mob.

A woman can literally make an accusation, whether it's false or misinterpreted--and your entire world can end as a man.

Any line of employment, any friendship that you had with people...can all end just on someone's word or beliefs despite the facts that come out afterword.


People act as if some women aren't liars, or can't lie about something to manipulate a situation in their favor.
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Old Today, 07:53 AM
 
Location: Somewhere below Mason/Dixon
6,523 posts, read 7,475,821 times
Reputation: 10928
Sorry folks....women are not entitled to only be hit on by those they want to be hit on by. Weird inappropriate comments, guys being persistent and guys who get a bit creepy are annoying or unpleasant no doubt but they are not doing anything illegal. You cannot stop unattractive or unappealing men from making advances. It is also definitely not right to label them as some kind of sexual offenders because these guys make you uncomfortable. Live with it and deal with it, that is life. Tired of these me too nuts. I take not a one of them seriously. Of course screaming obese blue haired feminists are kind of humorous lol.
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Old Today, 08:44 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,597 posts, read 5,384,265 times
Reputation: 10495
Quote:
Originally Posted by personne View Post
Did you mean to say talking about abuse moves from the point from real victims ?

Who are victims ? Please be clear :-)
If you read the past few posts, you'll get a sense of the point I'm trying to make.... When the perception moves away from those that desperately need a voice to all about being exclusionary and accusatory. Rape and sexual harassment is a concern for both males and females; society in general.

I saw similar direction with feminism. Traditional feminism fought for equal opportunity (voting rights, property ownership rights etc) for women. It garnered support from both men and women; key to its success. It later morphed into what we see today; a sense of exclusion of men and accusing of men of ill will against women. It is no longer about equal opportunities but rather a position of us vs them. As such, feminism has lost a lot of support, even from long time traditional feminists, that no longer want to be associated with the movement.

When the message or perception morphs into men feeling attacked for simply being men (somebodynew's touches on this), the movement is no longer effective. Even men who want to support the victims of rape and assault are unlikely to feel welcome and hesitate to be supportive. No person wants to be constantly told they are at core rotten.

It only takes a few cases false accusations and the resulting "mob rule without evidence/substance to also hurt the general movement.... it hurts those that are real victims. Women who make false accusations can do much more harm from within than any man. They haven't addressed that... the metoo movement should be just as harsh on people making false accusations as the men who commit crimes.

It ends up being all about generalizing the entire male population rather than the women who desperately need a voice.

In feminism, the message needs to be "equal opportunity" for all... not entitlement for women.
In metoo, the message needs to be about supporting and giving victims a voice... not men a bad and capable of sexual harassment/assault.

It shouldn't discourage participation from men... it certainly should ignore than men are also victims of rape. In order to spark change rather than division, you need participation from both men and women... inclusion not exclusion.. and the message needs to remain focused on the real victims of rape.

Last edited by usayit; Today at 08:58 AM..
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Old Today, 09:02 AM
 
12,268 posts, read 9,910,942 times
Reputation: 15870
Quote:
Originally Posted by itshim View Post
the only problem that I have with Metoo is that is trial by mob rule. No substantial evidence is needed, nor are you given a chance to explain or defend yourself. It's simply on her word, however long ago it happened and you are completely at the mercy of the mob.
This is a difficult aspect of the conversation. What does it mean to *believe* a victim? What SHOULD it mean. It should mean that they do not face the same disbelief by so much as even talking about it as has always been the case. She should not face the regular barrage of "why didn't you just" ... and "why didn't you"... and "I would have"... that indicate clearly that the assault was her fault. It means that her whole sexual history should not be touted out to prove how she was asking for it...

What it isn't and should not be, obviously (or should be obvious) is enough evidence to convict in a court of law. Nor is it.

Quote:
A woman can literally make an accusation, whether it's false or misinterpreted--and your entire world can end as a man.
I know, personally, of no instance in which this has happened. I imagine it has. But people cite things like the Kavanaugh case, and it is more than difficult to see how his entire world ended. He is a Supreme Court justice. When you seek one of the highest offices in the land, I think it is more than reasonable that credible reports are properly investigated. It is a travesty, in my mind, that this was not. This is a lifetime appointment that has far reaching effects on our law for decades to come. It is easy, on the other hand, to see how Dr Ford's entire world has ended. She had to go into hiding because of death threats.


Quote:
Any line of employment, any friendship that you had with people...can all end just on someone's word or beliefs despite the facts that come out afterword.
While I imagine this happens, this has not been my experience. Sexual harassment claims are either 1) handled really well by the employer or 2) much more likely to hustle people around to the protection of the harasser. Do you have information, evidence or cites that demonstrate this as a prevalent problem? I would be very interested in this.

See the thing is, exploding the prevalence and effect of this is a nice way to keep the status quo. When you place the notion that harassment, assault, etc.. are a non-thing with a zero tolerance for the risk of a false report, the status quo is what you are left with.

I think it is a significant failure of the criminal justice system not to prioritize false reporting across the board. It does NO service to justice.

Quote:
People act as if some women aren't liars, or can't lie about something to manipulate a situation in their favor.
And they do. But I compare the prevalence of this to the prevalence of actual assault, harassment, etc.. and it is hard to make that a good reason to halt the conversations around the latter.
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Old Today, 09:12 AM
 
Location: NNJ
9,597 posts, read 5,384,265 times
Reputation: 10495
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
I know, personally, of no instance in which this has happened. I imagine it has.
Your original cartoon can also be applied here...

From my understanding it happens far more than you might think. Understandably, it is a topic that many are uncomfortable to discuss; it shows a weakness in our judicial system and risks marginalizing real victims of rape to name two. Much like in the newspaper you read about a person being arrested for a crime with the disclaimer "Innocent until proven guilty" but you rarely ever hear a follow up story that they were exonerated or charges were dropped..

In college, I've heard of several similar stories; a woman and man hanging out and got drunk... to their own indiscretions they have sex... neither really in a proper frame of mind. Of those two people, only the woman can claim sexual assault with any sort of perceived credibility... and yes... some probably "Absolutely believed" that they were assaulted (no false claim intended). It doesn't change the matter of fact that they both share responsibility not just the man in such a situation.

Here's another story... with an even more sinister intent. I was so sadden when it barely made front page news when the story broke

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_...rican_football)

"Banks was a standout high school football star at Polytechnic High School (Poly) in Long Beach, California. In 2002, his Junior year, Banks verbally committed to USC.[6] After being falsely accused of rape by classmate Wanetta Gibson, he spent close to six years wrongfully imprisoned and five years on a strict custody parole, but had his conviction overturned in 2012 after his accuser confessed that she had fabricated the entire story."

It goes on with...

"Wanetta Gibson and her mother Wanda Rhodes sued the Long Beach Unified School District, claiming the Poly campus was not a safe environment, and won a $1.5 million settlement."

The school district is currently trying to recover the settlement and has won a $2.6 million judgement stemming from the false rape accusation.... Gibson is currently in hiding... presumably living off the $1.5 million she "stole".
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