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Old Today, 03:54 PM
 
Location: Pine Grove,AL
23,324 posts, read 11,549,845 times
Reputation: 4318

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Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
While I grant that you have the right to disagree with me about what Democrats stand for (although I think you are wrong), you are WAY incorrect in stating that "working class" is sugarcoating "straight and white" -- or don't you think that there are any working class* non-whites and/or non-straights?


*However, I do realize that my definition of "working class" might be different than your definition of "working class" as was discussed in a thread a few weeks ago, if memory serves. (Sorry, I don't remember the title of the thread or I would link it.) In any case, MY definition of "working class" is a household in which at least one member works a total of at least 40 hours a week, but that the household has significantly less (I would say at least 20% less) than the median U.S. household income -- and I would bet my last dollar that there are literally millions of people who aren't white and/or straight who meet that definition!
But why do we disagree, thats the real question, thats why I used the Ohio Family Van Jones interviewed as my example.

His original argument was the same as yours, but when Van Jones pressed him, he point blank said Democrats cant represent white people and gay/black/brown people at the same time. That seems to be the argument from everyone I see who makes the "Democrats dont represent working class people" once you press them on the issue. It seems to always be the argument of the white people in the "Why i left the left movement as well".

You have stated that you dont mean this, but genuinely mean working class no matter the race, gender, or sexuality ; But the question is still, Why do you believe this ?

Can you actually explain your argument. What have democrats done that makes you think they dont support the middle class ?
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Old Today, 03:56 PM
 
Location: Pine Grove,AL
23,324 posts, read 11,549,845 times
Reputation: 4318
Quote:
Originally Posted by juneaubound View Post
Someone else back on Page 1 wrote this: Voting is an act of violence against your fellow citizen

To the OP - this forum is not the place to get actual advice that you can take to heart. You are surrounded (both on this forum, in the media and by both major political parties) by lies designed to a) pull your strings b) keep you ignorant and compliant and c) allow certain people to maintain - or regain - power.

Bottom lines:

a) read a lot from a lot of different sources - watch videos from a lot of different sources

b) stay out of echo chambers and don't waste your time arguing. You can't win and life is too short to argue with strangers on the internet

c) talk face-to-face with actual real life people whose judgment in general you trust

d) think for yourself

e) know that all you can do is the best you can do. Make the best decisions you can. End of story.
I think this is good advice. with the exception of the "Both parties" lines.
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Old Today, 03:59 PM
 
6,631 posts, read 1,367,599 times
Reputation: 16706
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
But why do we disagree, thats the real question, thats why I used the Ohio Family Van Jones interviewed as my example.

His original argument was the same as yours, but when Van Jones pressed him, he point blank said Democrats cant represent white people and gay/black/brown people at the same time. That seems to be the argument from everyone I see who makes the "Democrats dont represent working class people" once you press them on the issue. It seems to always be the argument of the white people in the "Why i left the left movement as well".

You have stated that you dont mean this, but genuinely mean working class no matter the race, gender, or sexuality ; But the question is still, Why do you believe this ?

Can you actually explain your argument. What have democrats done that makes you think they dont support the middle class ?
When a group of people want taxpayers to support people who can support themselves but choose not to do so or to give healthcare coverage to people who aren't citizens, that is taking money from people like me to give to people who, in my opinion, don't deserve it.

(And to be clear and as I have said many times, I do know that there are many, many people who are poor through absolutely no fault of their own, and I am certainly NOT referring to those people.)
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Old Today, 04:02 PM
 
Location: Atlanta metro (Cobb County)
1,571 posts, read 749,380 times
Reputation: 1674
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnamed View Post
Yep.

I mostly try to vote towards keeping checks and balances in place. Don't want to see one party in charge of everything.
I can understand this viewpoint. While I don't care much for Pelosi as a politician and like the "Squad" even less, it was a relief to see the House flip in the midterms. The nation is better off when the current administration doesn't have a rubber stamp and no effective oversight in both chambers of Congress.

Trump is personally obnoxious but he does have the inclination to deviate from the Republican party line on some issues. I'd like to see occurrences when he and the Democrats find common ground on policy get more publicity, and his inflammatory tweets receive less attention. Unfortunately that is too much to expect of the media on either side.
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Old Today, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Pine Grove,AL
23,324 posts, read 11,549,845 times
Reputation: 4318
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
When a group of people want taxpayers to support people who can support themselves but choose not to do so or to give healthcare coverage to people who aren't citizens, that is taking money from people like me to give to people who, in my opinion, don't deserve it.
I assume you mean Democrats saying healthcare for Everyone(keyword) will be paid for in a medicare for all system. But that in no way takes money away from you.

Mind you, in that system, those illegals would absolutely be paying into the system the same way you are, which is payroll taxes. If they arent, that is the fault of their employers, not them.

I dont get why people seem to not understand that.

Thats a far better system than illegals walking into an emergency room and the country paying for it right ?
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Old Today, 04:09 PM
 
Location: Pine Grove,AL
23,324 posts, read 11,549,845 times
Reputation: 4318
Quote:
Originally Posted by jas75 View Post
I can understand this viewpoint. While I don't care much for Pelosi as a politician and like the "Squad" even less, it was a relief to see the House flip in the midterms. The nation is better off when the current administration doesn't have a rubber stamp and no effective oversight in both chambers of Congress.

Trump is personally obnoxious but he does have the inclination to deviate from the Republican party line on some issues. I'd like to see occurrences when he and the Democrats find common ground on policy get more publicity, and his inflammatory tweets receive less attention. Unfortunately that is too much to expect of the media on either side.

62 million people follow his twitter(about 55 million of those being Americans), Most of his tweets get more views than CNN,Fox,CBS, ABC and NBC combined.

So shouldnt your comment be flipped. Shouldnt he use his twitter more wisely.
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Old Today, 04:17 PM
 
6,631 posts, read 1,367,599 times
Reputation: 16706
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
I assume you mean Democrats saying healthcare for Everyone(keyword) will be paid for in a medicare for all system. But that in no way takes money away from you.

Mind you, in that system, those illegals would absolutely be paying into the system the same way you are, which is payroll taxes. If they arent, that is the fault of their employers, not them.

I dont get why people seem to not understand that.

Thats a far better system than illegals walking into an emergency room and the country paying for it right ?
What about those "illegals" who don't have payroll taxes taken out?

In short, the problem I have is with people -- (any people, actually, but especially newly arrived immigrants who are not here legally)-- who get the same things that citizens do (and must pay for), but they pay nothing or only a small part.

And, yes, of course, I think that ER care for non-emergency situations would be ridiculous if not for the expense -- but that evades the main question or issue as to how many freebies is anyone entitled to?

I don't know about you, but other than things like free samples handed out in supermarkets, everything I have received in my life, either I or my parents have paid for -- either out of their own pockets or through paying a LOT in income and property taxes or through insurance premiums and co-payments (or as gifts from friends or loved ones).

P.S. And, yes, I know that illegal immigrants pay some taxes, but I doubt if it is enough to cover free education for their kids and free healthcare. I could be wrong about that, however.
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Old Today, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Atlanta metro (Cobb County)
1,571 posts, read 749,380 times
Reputation: 1674
Quote:
Originally Posted by dsjj251 View Post
62 million people follow his twitter(about 55 million of those being Americans), Most of his tweets get more views than CNN,Fox,CBS, ABC and NBC combined.

So shouldnt your comment be flipped. Shouldnt he use his twitter more wisely.
Unfortunately expecting a 73 year old celebrity businessman to change his behavior is a lost cause. But the business of the country still has to go on, and I don't fault politicians who can compartmentalize their frustration with his ridiculous rhetoric and put that aside when working with his Cabinet on legislation.
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Old Today, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Kentucky
187 posts, read 164,424 times
Reputation: 291
Another reason why we are likely seeing fewer moderates is that we have an angrier general public especially post Recession.

We have an angry group of teens to 30-somethings that are upset because they came up during the recession and may not be overall as well off as generations before them. This group feels like they got the short end of the stick and are upset and prone to adopting far-left viewpoints to stick to the people they feel are responsible for their undesirable situation.

We also have a group of older people who used to work jobs like coal-mining and manufacturing who see their jobs as a source of pride, but then due to the recession, outsourcing, and automation have lost those jobs and had to settle for other jobs or in some cases an even worse fate. This group feels like their country and people are leaving them behind and also this group is prone to being fearful of change. This makes this group prone to things like "Make America Great Again" and other more right-leaning/traditional things.


When you get emotions such as anger, sadness, or even envy involved it becomes a lot easier to lend your ear to more extreme viewpoints so, therefore, more fringe views are supported versus moderate views. To add to that social media and the internet have made it much easier for more extreme viewpoints to spread.
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Old Today, 04:36 PM
 
Location: Pine Grove,AL
23,324 posts, read 11,549,845 times
Reputation: 4318
Quote:
Originally Posted by katharsis View Post
What about those "illegals" who don't have payroll taxes taken out?

Hold those companies accountable as they are the ones who choose not to pay taxes. They are technically the ones responsible for paying that tax. If they dont, they are the ones who have violated the law.



Quote:
And, yes, of course, I think that ER care for non-emergency situations would be ridiculous if not for the expense -- but that evades the main question or issue as to how many freebies is anyone entitled to?

I don't know about you, but other than things like free samples handed out in supermarkets, everything I have received in my life, either I or my parents have paid for -- either out of their own pockets or through paying a LOT in income and property taxes or through insurance premiums and co-payments (or as gifts from friends or loved ones).
Again, hold the companies accountable for paying people under the table.

Quote:
P.S. And, yes, I know that illegal immigrants pay some taxes, but I doubt if it is enough to cover free education for their kids and free healthcare. I could be wrong about that, however.
Property taxes are either paid directly by the home owner(including mortgage) or through Rent. And everyone pays sales tax, So illegals absolutely pay for schools as those are the 2 ways most states,counties,cities pay for it. the 3rd most common way is Lotteries.the 4th most common way is a specialty tax, but only a couple of cities,and school districts in 16 states have specialty income taxes. So all in all, maybe 20 million people are affected by that. So if you are one of those 20 million, then yeah, you should be pissed

And again, its the companies fault if they choose to pay people under the table.


In short, you should be blaming Republicans, as they are the ones who allowed the e-verify loopholes, or Dont actually follow up. As well as companies who choose to pay under the table.

But property taxes for schools
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