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Old Yesterday, 08:21 AM
 
Location: Watervliet, NY
4,313 posts, read 1,601,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
The further back you go, the more freedom people had. Society has become much more regulated and pre-organized.

And incidents like his own assassination, or of Malcolm X, or RFK, is why society has become more regulated, because certain segments of society can't seem to be able to conduct themselves without engaging in criminal activity. Those happened in the last circumstances anyone at that time would expect.
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Old Yesterday, 08:25 AM
 
Location: Watervliet, NY
4,313 posts, read 1,601,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyard1962 View Post
And it is doubtful that he could have ran on the democrat ticket today. Look at the line up running now....

I can imagine them calling him out for his speech "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country." He would have been tabled a racist, an elitist (which he actually was) and more.

Look how they argued in the last debate. It was like watching a contest to see who could offer the most free stuff.

Actually, a friend of mine, who is black, mentioned to me recently that that quote was why, in 1960 at the age of 19, he voluntarily enlisted in the USAF. He served in Okinawa in the Security Service, and also served in Vietnam.
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Old Yesterday, 08:35 AM
 
Location: Watervliet, NY
4,313 posts, read 1,601,713 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
Really?

I think that depends on your perspective.

Were women more free back in the day?
I'm sure there are folks that would argue they weren't as free.

Wasn't JFK a drug addict with a wandering eye/hand/.....never mind...lol.

I think as time passes we gloss over the reality of life.

And I think our ancestry impacts our view on 'freedom' and life in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, etc.....

It could be argued life was simpler, but was it better?....hmmmmm

I think what that poster is referring to there was more freedom of access. There was a time when you could meet face to face with famous people without going through security. Hang around the stage door and wait for the actor or musician or singer to come out and you may get an autograph. Stand at the barrier when a politician comes to town to speechify, and maybe they'll come over and shake your hand.


I saw The Kingston Trio (very famous folk group from the late 1950's) 3 times between 1990 and 1996, with two of the original founding members, and I was able to hob nob with them without going through security. First time I was back stage, second and third times the concert was in an Irish pub, so I was hanging out at the bar with them. I have a photo of founding member Bob Shane with a beer bottle in one hand and his other arm around me. Three of the BEST concerts I've ever been to, because of the informality. They were just regular guys, not Grammy-winning performers that have performed on the largest stages in the music business.


I went to see Culture Club a year ago at Turning Stone Casino - I had to go through a metal detector, get scanned with the wand, however they did it, and when I did the Meet and Greet you had to leave any bags or purses with a security guard. We couldn't even take our own selfies with Boy George, they had one of the organizers take them, and then you had to be satisfied with the ones they took, and you didn't get to see the photos until they were uploaded to the website of the company organizing the M&G. Thankfully my two photos came out great.
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Old Yesterday, 08:49 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
9,797 posts, read 2,713,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ContraPagan View Post
And incidents like his own assassination, or of Malcolm X, or RFK, is why society has become more regulated, because certain segments of society can't seem to be able to conduct themselves without engaging in criminal activity. Those happened in the last circumstances anyone at that time would expect.
You'll have to look at the causes of these 'incidents' and ask what was the environment they were fostered in.


Just like a medical case, its not good enough to find a cure/solution, but also look for the cause.

For example a libertarian website, reason.com came out with an article as to why technology and free markets are great.

One example they used was an artificial pancrea being developed by a silicon valley biotech firm.

But this article ignores the causes of diabetes and affects increased technology (immobile lifestyle), food development (sugar intake), and genetic distribution (breeding by vastly different DNA code) has had on its proliferation. [especially as much of this comes down to market development].

That is not to say any of this is bad, but simply saying increased development and regulation solves problems ignore where that problem came from. It also ignores alternative solutions like decreasing political polarization, personal political power, and centralized religious authority.
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Old Yesterday, 08:52 AM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
13,805 posts, read 8,662,798 times
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More freedom in the old days? In many cases, yes.
*But back then you were not allowed to buy and sell stocks on your own and it was not possible for an outsider to watch trades as they were made. There was at least a 20 minute delay.
*It was illegal (!) to own The Physicians Desk Reference. That was for doctors only.
*The trucking industry was regulated by the ICC. You couldn't haul freight just anywhere and you had to buy your routes. Not only that, but every single item shipped had a code and a shipping rate.
*All airline tickets from point A to point B cost the same. They were regulated and controlled, just like freight.
*Birth control pills were new. But if you were under 21, you could not get them.


We have gained and lost a lot over the years. Oddly enough, it was Carter who made the biggest steps in deregulation.
I remember the JFK/Nixon debate(s). JFK chuckled his way through while Nixon looked dour and appeared to need a shave. Sure is different now!
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Old Yesterday, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Manchester NH
9,797 posts, read 2,713,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Listener2307 View Post
More freedom in the old days? In many cases, yes.
*But back then you were not allowed to buy and sell stocks on your own and it was not possible for an outsider to watch trades as they were made. There was at least a 20 minute delay.
*It was illegal (!) to own The Physicians Desk Reference. That was for doctors only.
*The trucking industry was regulated by the ICC. You couldn't haul freight just anywhere and you had to buy your routes. Not only that, but every single item shipped had a code and a shipping rate.
*All airline tickets from point A to point B cost the same. They were regulated and controlled, just like freight.
*Birth control pills were new. But if you were under 21, you could not get them.


We have gained and lost a lot over the years. Oddly enough, it was Carter who made the biggest steps in deregulation.
I remember the JFK/Nixon debate(s). JFK chuckled his way through while Nixon looked dour and appeared to need a shave. Sure is different now!
All great things.

Red tape and regulation are different.


Structural regulation in the new deal era was used to keep the accumulation of wealth and power in check.

today red tape is used to organize how society functions. We can do more things but how we do them is regulated.
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Old Yesterday, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
9,944 posts, read 6,661,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Freedom doesn't mean better, it just means more personal control and less regulation.


Black communities were segregated be in of themselves didn't face the same economic structures that control our lives today:
https://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/896412.html


edit: Another example could be Iran in the 70s. At the time Iran's government was far more authoritarian and oppressive than the US' government, but people on the streets faced less regulation on how to live their lives day to day. China in some ways, especially in less developed cities and rural areas, is also an example of this.

The fact is as society develops freedoms are curbed for better or for worse.
LOL. You've got to be kidding me.

More personal control and less regulation? In an era where your life was extremely circumscribed in nearly all aspects? Yeah, you had a lot of personal control when you were a common laborer and couldn't get any other opportunities because of your skin color. Such an empty and just meaningless comment in the context of a very restricted caste system. Get real.

I have no particular opinion about Iran.

China is a lot more freer in every aspect today than it was years ago - whether country or city today.
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Old Yesterday, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
9,797 posts, read 2,713,501 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
LOL. You've got to be kidding me.

More personal control and less regulation? In an era where your life was extremely circumscribed in nearly all aspects? Yeah, you had a lot of personal control when you were a common laborer and couldn't get any other opportunities because of your skin color. Such an empty and just meaningless comment in the context of a very restricted caste system. Get real.

I have no particular opinion about Iran.

China is a lot more freer in every aspect today than it was years ago - whether country or city today.
Compared to the great leap forward? Maybe, that's complicated.

Compared to 30 years ago? No way.

As for laborers, job opportunity is not freedom. Natives in Wisconsin had one job, farming (and hunting). But they were freer than colonists/Immigrants who could work in the printing press, the train rails, or mine for gold.

Job opportunity does not equal freedom.
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Old Yesterday, 03:07 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
9,944 posts, read 6,661,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winterfall8324 View Post
Compared to the great leap forward? Maybe, that's complicated.

Compared to 30 years ago? No way.

As for laborers, job opportunity is not freedom. Natives in Wisconsin had one job, farming (and hunting). But they were freer than colonists/Immigrants who could work in the printing press, the train rails, or mine for gold.

Job opportunity does not equal freedom.
Nope. You don't need to go back that far, or even to the Cultural Revolution. Try say, 25 years ago, in the 1990s (when I was working in Shanghai) to what it is now in China. No comparison in terms of what a Chinese person there can do both in terms of personal liberties and professional opportunities. It's still a authoritarian regime with limits on press and media freedom and others, but life in general is a lot better for folks in China. That's even before you take events like the Cultural Revolution or GLF that really ruined a lot of lives.

Your libertarian intellectual mutterings make little sense to me - you're trying to focus on the trees instead of the forest. I can tell you point blank that as an Asian American person, I'll take today's expanded opportunities in terms of personal development, cultural expression, and freedom to be who I am as opposed to the 1960s era of redlining, pressure to be "white", and remnants of McCarthyism.
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Old Yesterday, 03:30 PM
 
Location: Manchester NH
9,797 posts, read 2,713,501 times
Reputation: 2602
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
Nope. You don't need to go back that far, or even to the Cultural Revolution. Try say, 25 years ago, in the 1990s (when I was working in Shanghai) to what it is now in China. No comparison in terms of what a Chinese person there can do both in terms of personal liberties and professional opportunities. It's still a authoritarian regime with limits on press and media freedom and others, but life in general is a lot better for folks in China. That's even before you take events like the Cultural Revolution or GLF that really ruined a lot of lives.

Your libertarian intellectual mutterings make little sense to me - you're trying to focus on the trees instead of the forest. I can tell you point blank that as an Asian American person, I'll take today's expanded opportunities in terms of personal development, cultural expression, and freedom to be who I am as opposed to the 1960s era of redlining, pressure to be "white", and remnants of McCarthyism.
When was Tokyo more free, after ww2 when people were building their own homes with little zoning regulation or today?

I am absolutely not a libertarian in any way shape or form. Libertarians love progress and development.

Take Lhasa vs. Shanghai. I've only been to one (Lhasa) but I would see people do things that are unthinkable in most developed cities:

Open markets in vacant buildings, outdoor restrooms, etc. Same with Tehran.

Further along development goes, the more regulated society becomes. I'm not saying its bad or good thing, its just reality.

Go to Bolivia or Peru, some of the least developed societies in south America and then go to Los Angeles, New York, or some other city in the USA.

People live with less regulation and order. Again job opportunity is not freedom, especially when jobs are strictly structured to be productive and managed by financial institutions like Private Equity firms or state institutions.

East Asia is a highly regulated region with a highly regulated culture. Singapore, Hong Kong, Tokyo, Seoul, etc. are the standard.

Is that freedom, what about compared to shanty towns with little need for top down authority by government or financial institutions.


You can say Humans are better off in highly pacified, controlled, and dense cities but that doesn't change the fact that personal freedoms are by consequence curbed.


Freedom has nothing to do with Market choice. In fact that's why someone in a village in Mongolia who doesn't have access to any of the consumer goods someone in Beijing has is still freer by how much authority they have over their own lives.

That is why I am skeptical of those who support relentless capitalization of human labor and capital for the sake of efficiency.

Freedom as a concept still matters. Complicated institutions require by nature less freedom to manage: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_law_of_oligarchy
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