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Old 08-01-2019, 09:21 PM
 
Location: Canada
3,986 posts, read 2,772,138 times
Reputation: 5157

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Quote:
Originally Posted by kanonka View Post
Not sure what you mean. Decade ago is ~2009; SU collapsed in 1991. That's 18 years of pure capitalist system in Ukraine. And in case you didn't know, things are even worse now; so 28 years of capitalist system drove country totally down to the point where even Somali is better off economy-wise.

I would conclude that it's not a system that is right/wrong; it's more who has a power and what goals they have. After SU collapse all former republics are run by oligarchs that have only one goal - sell whatever leftovers their country has and ran away with all the stolen money to Miami
Well that has just changed in the Ukraine with the election of Volodymyr Zelensky as President in May: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volodymyr_Zelensky

He’s a popular actor and comedian whose job prior to becoming the Ukrainian President was playing the role of Ukrainian President on TV!

He was in Toronto a month ago attending a Ukraine Reform Conference with “representatives from 30 countries participating, as well as representatives from major international institutions such as the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank.”.

From an article written at that time:

Quote:
Zelenskiy, a popular actor and comedian with no previous political experience, easily won this spring's presidential election, unseating Petro Poroshenko and sparking concern about whether someone who played the Ukrainian president in a fictional TV drama was cut out for the actual job.

But Zelenskiy has worked quickly, dissolving his country's Parliament and pushing forward with new elections for that assembly later this month, a timeline that was months ahead of its previous schedule.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/ukr...isit-1.5196736

He subsequently was the big winner in the Parlimentary elections which were held last week:

Quote:
Zelensky will be the first president since the country's independence in 1991 to be backed by a parliamentary majority. And that gives him a clear mandate when it comes to tackling Ukraine's biggest problems: Corruption, a struggling economy, and a simmering war with pro-Russian separatists in the country's east.
Quote:
The pro-Russian Opposition Platform party came in a distant second to Zelensky's party, garnering 12.9% of the party-list vote, according to the latest preliminary results.
And that gives Zelensky a much more unified front when it comes to negotiating with Putin.
https://www.cnn.com/2019/07/22/europ...ntl/index.html
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:05 PM
 
4,001 posts, read 1,881,947 times
Reputation: 3950
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkcarguy View Post
All of you who think we can continue to purchase more than 4x the goods from China that they do from us, need to watch this video. Older video, same premise. See the forest through the trees.
This is not about which party you prefer, this is all about the money. We will be better off using our tariff money on Chinese imports to subsidize farmers and continue to reclaim our manufacturing base than continuing down the path of the last 3 decades.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=TYKAbRK_wKA
Exactly.
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Old 08-01-2019, 11:08 PM
 
Location: Stillwater, Oklahoma
15,455 posts, read 13,499,659 times
Reputation: 4692
Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeye2009 View Post
The dem solution- Let China steal our technology, cheat on trade, and destroy our economy.


Dems are so partisan that they side with an authoritarian foreign nation like China over their fellow citizens and nation.


Dems are literally fifth columnists among us who are enemies of the nation.
In other words, what you're trying to say is that more tariffs from Trump are far better.
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Old 08-02-2019, 12:10 AM
 
273 posts, read 49,215 times
Reputation: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkcarguy View Post
I don't see how it's ok to replace US manufacturing jobs with "middlemen" jobs for imported stuff.
I didn't say it's ok. I asked how exactly tariffs will help? I gave specific examples (which are quite common scenarios), and tariffs are not helping in any of them. In fact, they are hurting even more. Do you have scenario when tariffs help?

Here is the common issue: tariffs only help poor countries - they push domestic business to replace imported goods, and, being poor country, allow to export these newly developed goods much cheaper that competitor against which tariffs were imposed. Of course, main caveat is that country should have resources (natural and human) to create those goods. But for rich countries tariffs do just harm. Goods created in rich country are only competitive when foreign cheap components (goods and/or labor) are used - just because labor cost in rich country is high, and that adds to everything. When rich country imposes tariffs, cost of goods produced there skyrockets, and is no longer competitive. Imagine cost of iPhone if it will be completely produced in US? I'd say over $3,000. Who gonna buy it even in US, not to mention export? Less stupid approach for rich country is to impose tariffs on final consumer goods. This will kind of help domestic production ... to some extent. But new goods created in rich country to replace banned goods from cheap country still will not be competitive in a global trade. Basically, US industry will have nothing to offer to global market - because its goods will cost much more than comparable ones from China. So tariffs will essentially isolate US from global trade (export side). This will destroy lots of businesses, producing exactly opposite effect from desired one.

Just FYI: success of Walmart is explained in very simple phrase: "it's better to get $1 from million customers than $1000 from one". That's exactly what China is doing, and that's exactly why tariffs will hurt US. Actually, they are already hurting.

Last edited by kanonka; 08-02-2019 at 12:35 AM..
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Old 08-02-2019, 12:31 AM
 
273 posts, read 49,215 times
Reputation: 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnirene View Post
Well that has just changed in the Ukraine with the election of Volodymyr Zelensky as President in May
Not sure why we are talking about Ukraine in this thread, but that country is the exact opposite of China. China was going up these 28 (actually, 31) years, while Ukraine was going downhill in the same timeframe.
And now, nothing has changed. In case you didn't know, Zelensky is creature of another Ukraine oligarch Kolomoyskyi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi
When Kolomoyskyi says "jump", Zelensky does as commanded. So, oligarch puppet replaced another oligarch. Trend continues...
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Old 08-02-2019, 05:58 AM
 
38,920 posts, read 15,264,442 times
Reputation: 25273
Quote:
Originally Posted by kanonka View Post
I didn't say it's ok. I asked how exactly tariffs will help? I gave specific examples (which are quite common scenarios), and tariffs are not helping in any of them. In fact, they are hurting even more. Do you have scenario when tariffs help?

Here is the common issue: tariffs only help poor countries - they push domestic business to replace imported goods, and, being poor country, allow to export these newly developed goods much cheaper that competitor against which tariffs were imposed. Of course, main caveat is that country should have resources (natural and human) to create those goods. But for rich countries tariffs do just harm. Goods created in rich country are only competitive when foreign cheap components (goods and/or labor) are used - just because labor cost in rich country is high, and that adds to everything. When rich country imposes tariffs, cost of goods produced there skyrockets, and is no longer competitive. Imagine cost of iPhone if it will be completely produced in US? I'd say over $3,000. Who gonna buy it even in US, not to mention export? Less stupid approach for rich country is to impose tariffs on final consumer goods. This will kind of help domestic production ... to some extent. But new goods created in rich country to replace banned goods from cheap country still will not be competitive in a global trade. Basically, US industry will have nothing to offer to global market - because its goods will cost much more than comparable ones from China. So tariffs will essentially isolate US from global trade (export side). This will destroy lots of businesses, producing exactly opposite effect from desired one.

Just FYI: success of Walmart is explained in very simple phrase: "it's better to get $1 from million customers than $1000 from one". That's exactly what China is doing, and that's exactly why tariffs will hurt US. Actually, they are already hurting.
Great explanation.

Could you please do it again using using more paragraph breaks and fewer words such as "caveat" which will surely baffle several in this discussion. I think this might make your explanation easier to grasp.

Thanks.
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:02 AM
 
23,844 posts, read 12,569,324 times
Reputation: 7615
Trump said in his speech last night -- this tariff is a tax on China.

Not it isn't.

There is nothing to indicate China is carrying the burden of the extra costs of the import.

He's full of !@#$. Why do you conservatives and the conservative media insist on letting him lie to you like that.
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:18 AM
 
Location: Florida
63,449 posts, read 34,709,883 times
Reputation: 10602
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
Trump said in his speech last night -- this tariff is a tax on China.

Not it isn't.

There is nothing to indicate China is carrying the burden of the extra costs of the import.

He's full of !@#$. Why do you conservatives and the conservative media insist on letting him lie to you like that.
That is how ignorant Trump is.

It is a tax on American citizens.
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Old 08-02-2019, 06:41 AM
 
299 posts, read 145,129 times
Reputation: 709
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
That is how ignorant Trump is.

It is a tax on American citizens.
Who buy cheap crap from China.
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Old 08-02-2019, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Rutherfordton,NC
15,040 posts, read 9,273,038 times
Reputation: 10017
Quote:
Originally Posted by moneill View Post
Trump said in his speech last night -- this tariff is a tax on China.

Not it isn't.

There is nothing to indicate China is carrying the burden of the extra costs of the import.

He's full of !@#$. Why do you conservatives and the conservative media insist on letting him lie to you like that.
Heard on the radio this morning on an average these tariffs add roughly $460 to the consumers.
Then there is this.

Major U.S. stock indexes fell about 1% and the Dow Jones Industrial Average closed down 280 points. Oil prices tumbled about 8% after Trump's announcement on concerns that the tariffs would hurt demand.

Trump indicated Thursday he was disappointed by the lack of progress in the talks, saying China had failed to follow through on promises to curb the sale of fentanyl and buy more products from U.S. farmers.
Additionally, my friend President Xi said that he would stop the sale of Fentanyl to the United States – this never happened, and many Americans continue to die!" Trump said in a tweet.


https://www.npr.org/2019/08/01/74730...s-stocks-slide

Of course if anyone does doe it falls on Trump. But why are we getting fentanyl from China?
More B.S about buy American.
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