U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old Today, 07:55 AM
 
1,337 posts, read 701,165 times
Reputation: 368

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by T-310 View Post
Raise the MW and cut the hours worked equals the same money earned.
T-310, many employers believe their employees are not worthy of their pay, but they don't dismiss those employees. Those employers are not altruistic.

They cannot recruit superior labor for inferior wage rates, and they have determined that it would be to their own or their enterprises' net detriments if they fired those workers.
The cleaning lady needs some time to do her job properly. Cutting her hours will consequentially push the employee to seek another employer and/or the place will not be properly cleaned.

The customers are only “right” if they're willing to pay the price for being “right”. This remains true even if the buyers are employers.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old Today, 08:40 AM
 
9,158 posts, read 5,642,670 times
Reputation: 3880
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Minimum wage, a character issue. That's the essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate.
The federal minimum wage, (FMW) rate is of net social and economic benefit to our nation. It has never been among the major causes of the U.S. dollar’s inflation; on the contrary, it’s certainly among inflation's victims.

No employees are poorer and no enterprises suffer any competitive disadvantage to any USA enterprises due to the FMW rate.

[there’s no doubt that USA’s higher wage rates are among the causes of our products’ price disadvantages in comparison to products from lower-wage nations; but although the elimination of our minimum wage laws would be greatly detrimental to our nation’s net social and economic well-being, eliminating it would accomplish extremely little to remedy our products’ global price disadvantages.]

I suppose most USA’s population, (significantly more than a 10% plurality) to some extent approve of federal minimum rate’s existence. There are much fewer among wealthy or competent people that are opposed to the federal minimum rate.

A great proportion of minimum rate opponents lack self-esteem. They need whatever affirmation of their own worth that they can derive by being able to look down upon people experiencing lesser financial conditions. They cannot acknowledge even to themselves their fears of improving the financial conditions of others would consequentially reduce their own social status. That’s the essence of personal and political opposition to the FMW rate.
Ah hem, .... where to start with this parade of ignorance and arrogance.....

First off, it’s not surprising that you’d consider all who disagree with you to be suffering some form of a character or morality problem, because naturally, you couldn’t possibly be wrong, could you? That’s not even a consideration, is it? The all knowing liberal mind, in all its self anointed glory, on full display, and as predictable as the sunrise.

I know this will fall on deaf ears, however, it’s important to highlight why you are indeed wrong, and why those who oppose FMW are right, because some of the opposition don’t really know why they are right, they may simply recognize the flawed pattern present in all liberal ideological positions as self defeating, and logically choose the opposite.

Those who promote a FMW self identify as persons who do what liberals always do ... choose a position that sounds good on the surface, yet lack the knowledge and experience to recognize the flaws. Clearly, proponents of the FMW have never operated a business that employs people, and totally misunderstand the fundamental nature of the relationship between employers and employees. Pro-FMW folks falsely believe that workers are competing against employers for better wages. That’s not the case. The reality is, workers compete against other workers for available jobs, while employers compete against other employers for available workers. Supply and demand then dictates the wage, just as supply and demand controls basic economics, no matter the example, be it jobs, products or services, or housing, or the cost of freaking tomatoes.

And, just to to highlight the truth in my claim that liberal policies produce the opposite effect of its intention, the FMW is a perfect example. Obviously, the FMW is intended to help the low wage worker, however, that is indeed the very worker who will be harmed the most, and here is WHY:

We can safely assume that the lowest wage worker is the lowest skilled worker, generally speaking. And given the nature of competition for jobs, this low skilled worker is in competition with all other workers, both low skilled, and higher skilled workers too. His only advantage in the competition against a higher skilled worker is his ability or willingness to work at a lower wage. He simply can’t compete based on skills.

For the sake of discussion, we’ll analyze a hypothetical business example ... a small business employing 8 people. The bottom of the wage group here is the janitor making $7.25. Next we have a slightly higher skilled mail clerk at $8.00. We have a dispatcher at $9.00; an assistant mgr at $14, and a Gen mgr at $18, and 3 delivery drivers $16.00. OK?

Tomorrow, a FMW of $15/hr goes into effect. Guess who loses his job? If you guessed the lowest skilled worker, the janitor, you’d be correct. As the employer, I will not pay a low skilled janitor a dollar more per hour than I was paying my assistant manager, and $7 more than my slightly higher skilled mail clerk, who I now have to pay $15/hr also. The mail clerk is also in jeopardy because my assistant manager who I was paying $14/hr is now making $15. If I have to pay $15 regardless, then I’m going to have my assistant mgr with much more skill and experience sweep the floor, and handle the mail, and utilize their higher skills for other tasks too. The unskilled janitor is OUT., and probably the mail clerk too. So, the very worker the FMW was supposed to help, didn’t help, it made him unemployed, and now he earns $0.00 instead of $7.25. What’s worse, he’s now unemployable, because he now no longer is competing with other unskilled workers, but is competing against a much larger group of workers with far more skills.

I’m sure he was jumping for joy at the prospect of having his income doubled, thanks to the wonderful liberals he voted for, until reality hit him in the face, and he became unemployed and homeless overnight.

Transpose this terribly flawed idea across the business model, effecting the general economy, and you’ll understand the devastating economic effects of liberal lunatics who are never wrong, and consider anyone who disagrees with them, intellectually and morally inferior.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 12:09 PM
 
1,337 posts, read 701,165 times
Reputation: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Ah hem, .... where to start with this parade of ignorance and arrogance.....

First off, it’s not surprising that you’d consider all who disagree with you to be suffering some form of a character or morality problem, because naturally, you couldn’t possibly be wrong, could you? That’s not even a consideration, is it? The all-knowing liberal mind, in all its self-anointed glory, on full display, and as predictable as the sunrise.

I know this will fall on deaf ears, however, it’s important to highlight why you are indeed wrong, and why those who oppose FMW are right, because some of the opposition don’t really know why they are right, they may simply recognize the flawed pattern present in all liberal ideological positions as self-defeating, and logically choose the opposite. ...
GuyNTexas, I'm absolutely correct, except when I'm not. I don't simply empathize with your objection to my arrogance, I agree with you. I despise false modesty; considering it as a form of duplicity. It would be cowardly not to “get out of the closet” and not admit to my attitude.

I have more or lesser firmness of convictions regarding some political or economic topics, but I'm unaware of my similar attitude in regard to any other of them. Almost all of my posts are to the economics forum.

The definite minimum wage rate is applicable to the least desirable employee or applicant for the least challenging job. Eliminating or permitting the purchasing power of the legally enforced minimum wage rate to be reduced is morally and economically indefensible.

My attitude, to paraphrase “the Godfather” line is, it ain't politics or economics, it's morality and personal. But enough about me, what do you really think of me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 12:42 PM
 
3,631 posts, read 713,097 times
Reputation: 2571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Rachel976. no one's handing people a low-wage, those wages are earned. The minimum wage rate is not public assistance.

The minimum wage critically effects no less than the lowest 20th percentile and substantially affects the remainder of lowest 40th percentile of USA's wage earners. Due tothe concepts of wage differentials, it affects all USA wage rates.
We WOULD be handing out money if the minimum were raised to $15 an hour when the market value is only $8 or $9.

And are you trying to tell me that fully 20% of the labor force is made up of unskilled workers earning the current minimum wage? If that's the case, why are we trying to import a million more unskilled workers every year?

I still go with my first post. If people want to earn more than the minimum wage, they need to get some sort of training beyond high school. Taxpayers cover the expense of that via Pell Grants, and unskilled workers need to take advantage of that that generosity.

I'd also recommend two tracks in high school. Everyone takes the same basic classes the first three years, but then the kids divide into college prep or vocational. Then kids who aren't college material (and yes, not everyone is) would have some marketable skill.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 12:48 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,685 posts, read 19,416,070 times
Reputation: 8599
Any adult working full-time, regardless of the job, deserves an income that enables them to lead a decent life without getting into debt or poverty. After all, no employer hires anyone for doing something that is not required.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 01:03 PM
 
3,631 posts, read 713,097 times
Reputation: 2571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Any adult working full-time, regardless of the job, deserves an income that enables them to lead a decent life without getting into debt or poverty. After all, no employer hires anyone for doing something that is not required.
Yes, that is the idealistic view of liberals.

The reality is that some jobs simply aren't worth that money to an employer, and people would lose jobs. Have you been to a Walmart or Target recently? There are aisles and aisles of self-serve lines with maybe two or three with a cashier. Raise the minimum up to $15, and those remaining cashiers will be canned as well. Then you'll have even more people on full welfare assistance, completely dependent on the government. You think that's preferable?

The answer is to get some post high school job training, anything from a 6-month certificate in HVAC repair to a two-year A.A. degree in accounting support. If you're low income, the tuition is fully paid by other people.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 01:08 PM
 
3,631 posts, read 713,097 times
Reputation: 2571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Any adult working full-time, regardless of the job, deserves an income that enables them to lead a decent life without getting into debt or poverty. After all, no employer hires anyone for doing something that is not required.
And P.S. Have you ever owned a business? I have, and a neighbor practically begged me to hire her daughter (high school degree only) for at least part-time. I didn't have an absolutely necessity, but I figured I'd give the kid a chance to earn some money and paid her $10 an hour, 20 hours a week, to run simple errands, sort incoming mail, meter the mail, that type of thing. If I were required to pay her $15 an hour, and keeping in mind these were tasks I just as soon would have done myself, I would have said no. That was money coming right out of my bottom line, and my own personal budget. I wasn't running a charity.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 01:11 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,685 posts, read 19,416,070 times
Reputation: 8599
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
Yes, that is the idealistic view of liberals.

The reality is that some jobs simply aren't worth that money to an employer, and people would lose jobs. Have you been to a Walmart or Target recently? There are aisles and aisles of self-serve lines with maybe two or three with a cashier. Raise the minimum up to $15, and those remaining cashiers will be canned as well. Then you'll have even more people on full welfare assistance, completely dependent on the government. You think that's preferable?

The answer is to get some post high school job training, anything from a 6-month certificate in HVAC repair to a two-year A.A. degree in accounting support. If you're low income, the tuition is fully paid by other people.

In the supermarket I tend to go to, they also have two self-service lines, but the ones with human cashiers are always much longer because people don't like self-service.

Walmart etc. make huge profits, but they prefer to give them to investors that are already filthy rich instead of paying their employees decent wages.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 01:14 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,685 posts, read 19,416,070 times
Reputation: 8599
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachel976 View Post
And P.S. Have you ever owned a business? I have, and a neighbor practically begged me to hire her daughter (high school degree only) for at least part-time. I didn't have an absolutely necessity, but I figured I'd give the kid a chance to earn some money and paid her $10 an hour, 20 hours a week, to run simple errands, sort incoming mail, meter the mail, that type of thing. If I were required to pay her $15 an hour, and keeping in mind these were tasks I just as soon would have done myself, I would have said no. That was money coming right out of my bottom line, and my own personal budget. I wasn't running a charity.
When you have a very small business, nobody blames you for not hiring someone you don't need.
As I said before, companies usually don't hire people to do tasks that don't need to be done. They hire people because they perform required tasks, regardless of their level.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old Today, 01:25 PM
 
Location: Houston
22,687 posts, read 11,677,724 times
Reputation: 9207
The ignorance of liberals on economics is amazing. The best way to raise real wages of unskilled workers is to greatly reduce legal and illegal immigrant unskilled workers. Of course the party liberals tend to vote for won’t favor that.

But they are the anointed ones.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top