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Old Yesterday, 12:56 PM
 
1,344 posts, read 704,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Rachel976, employers are trying to import trained skilled workers because we don't produce enough of our own. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Rachel976, ... Regarding your commenting of USA importing “unskilled workers”, those foreign-born legal and illegal persons are eager to work under conditions and wage rates that are unacceptable to persons born in the USA. Employers prefer them and/or cannot function without them. When those legal and/or illegal foreign-born are the majority of the labor pool for such jobs in some USA localities or industries, persons born in the USA put themselves at disadvantage if they seek or accept such jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
What? If that is true, could not the same thing be said of unskilled workers putting themselves at a disadvantage in attempting to compete against other workers with more skills, thereby destroying the idea that they should be paid a specified livable rate, regardless of their value and ability to compete and produce?

You really do want your cake and eat it too, dontcha?
GuyNTexas, you're asking if my post #38 is true? Would a maven such as I ever post anything that wasn't incisive, brilliant, absolutely correct? I also modestly acknowledge my greatly unappreciated singing voice.
But walk me through your post. My thinking cap's in the laundry and I don't understand your question.

[I made no mention of it; but responding to Rachel's remark, I was considering large agricultural, ranching, meat and poultry processing sites which have been subject to ICE scrutiny, raids, or threats of raids]
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Old Yesterday, 12:58 PM
 
9,161 posts, read 5,645,736 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
GuyNTexas, I'm not all that nice and altruistic, but I do subscribe to the idea, “we all do better when we all do better”. I believe my arguments in favor of the minimum wage rate are logical rather than moral or emotional.

The federal minimum wage rate is a minimum. It does not control product prices or wages and is not among the primary factors that affect the U.S. Dollars rate of inflation. Regardless if the federal minimum rate is or is not increased, annual inflation does occur.

Supply of labor, demand for labor, and the federal minimum wage rate are all factors affecting wage differentials in the USA. If there's a scarcity of labor for any job, the minimum rate has no effect upon the job's wage rate. Regardless of any labor surplus, the wage rate of a USA job subject to the federal minimum rate, may not legally be driven below that rate.

I find opposition to the minimum wage rate to be illogical to an extent as to have led me to sincerely attribute that opposition as due to inability to fully consider the issue, and/or character disorder, and/or political pandering.
I can see this debate going nowhere. Nevertheless, as I’ve painfully detailed how the FMW will harm the very workers its supposed to help, that alone proves the scheme illogical. While this is reason enough to dismiss it, the greater implications of government intrusion and overreach have much longer term negative consequences.

Funny that you’d allege that opponents are the ones unable to fully consider the issue, when it is actually you having failed to even address the deeper issues presented against the measure.

I say there is some serious projection happening here.
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Old Yesterday, 01:02 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,707 posts, read 19,426,590 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
Ok, question .... who should decide what constitutes “decently”? And, can you concede that you would likely wind up with as many different answers to that question as persons asked?

But more importantly, please explain to me why you think an outside party should have the power to dictate the terms of labor agreement between two private parties, rather than recognize the right of those two private individuals to reach their own agreement?

The reality here is that misguided folks like you are advocating, and indeed demanding their own enslavement, and the rest of us, along with you!

If a person is not free to negotiate his own terms regarding the value if his labor, then someone else owns him!
What is decent depends most of all on the local cost of living, especially housing. In other words, I am not for a fixed minimum wage across the country, but for regional ones.

Because both sides are not equally strong. The employer has a much stronger position, so someone needs to help the weaker side. The government/laws regulate all kinds of aspects of the economy, and that because it has been found to be necessary.

They can still negotiate anything above the minimum. And nobody forces anyone to hire anyone.

There are studies from various countries that confirm that despite the usual whining of companies the introduction of a minimum wage is a positive step. And the economic problems predicted/threatened by companies have not materialized because, as said before, companies will hire people when they have tasks that need to be performed.
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Old Yesterday, 01:22 PM
 
52,217 posts, read 42,017,368 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
What is decent depends most of all on the local cost of living, especially housing. In other words, I am not for a fixed minimum wage across the country, but for regional ones.
Yep. That's my only beef with the federal minimum wage push for $15. The cynic in me recognizes that this is a political ploy because they're trying to create a wedge issue and not actually address the problem by intentionally making it a non-starter for low cost rural areas (R) where it makes much more sense in higher cost urban areas (D).

Otherwise, I give up, changing it won't effect me and frankly some people you can explain "fire hot" to a hundred times and they just have to get burned instead.

Business is already adjusting to higher wages with automation and a push towards paying more but only hiring more effective employees. (ie. Target and Costco already uses that model)

Too many people have failed to realize that the CBO has already noted the job losses that it will incur, those will be the least capable people.

For example, Stacy might get a wage boost but Tina will get laid off and will be largely unhirable at $15/hr. Tough luck Tina.

This is even ignoring all the real-world wages dodges that are already used like paying illegals under the table which will be even more attractive. Again, *shrug* fire hot.

Most of the people in this situation frankly aren't that bright. It's like 3 people getting invited to dinner by cannibals and 1 of them is going to have a less pleasant experience than the others. Bon Apetit!
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Old Yesterday, 01:31 PM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
21,707 posts, read 19,426,590 times
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Automation will happen regardless of the minimum wage. Simply because the technology enables it.
It's a problem that will increasingly affect employees on all income levels.
Once AI really kicks in, society will be a mess.
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Old Yesterday, 01:41 PM
 
1,344 posts, read 704,088 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ottomobeale View Post
One thing I have read about a bit.

At $15 an hour, there is interest from a higher tier of worker who may replace someone with fewer skills. IE the job does not go away but the lowest skilled worker does.
Ottomobeale, due to the minimum rate's increase finally attaining $15/Hr., the rates for those that were previously earning $15 have increased by amounts somewhat more than that of the minimum rate, but the proportional increases of those higher rates are less than that of the minimum rate. Employees wage rate's purchasing powers are generally increased due to the minimum wage rate increase.

But if prior to the increase, there were fewer jobs available to an unemployed $15 worker, that worker may very well accept a lesser challenging job at lesser wage rate and effectively displace another lesser qualified employee.
When the minimum wage rate increases, such occurrences do, (and I suppose should) continue to occur.
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Old Yesterday, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark
10,559 posts, read 8,832,049 times
Reputation: 12274
Minimum wage laws result in higher unemployment and net loss in welfare, even though those already employed reap additional benefits.
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Old Yesterday, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Ohio
20,076 posts, read 14,325,698 times
Reputation: 16236
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Minimum wage, a character issue.
A character issue?

Well, let's examine your character.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Since February-1968, the federal minimum wage rate has lost 39% of its purchasing power.

Regrettably, you're ill-informed regarding what's being discussed within this thread.
Your imitation of Herr Josef Göbbels is spot-on.

The federal minimum wage law wasn't enacted in February 1968.

The federal minimum wage law went in effect October 1938 or about ~30 years prior to the date you deceitfully cherry-picked for propaganda and disinformation purposes.

So, out of 696 months, you cherry-pick one single month to make a baseless argument on a subject you don't even understand.

One might conclude the nature of your character is the manipulation of data for purposes of deception.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
The federal minimum wage, (FMW) rate is of net social and economic benefit to our nation.
Our nation?

Which nation is that? The Chickasaw Nation? The Seminole Nation? The Miami Nation? The Cherokee Nation?

Those are nations. The US is not now and has never been a nation.

The US is a country.

The legal and technical difference between a nation and a country is homogeneity. Nations are homogeneous, while countries are heterogeneous.

A nation has one culture. There is one language, one alphabet, a hero or heroes and holidays that are celebrated and unique art, literature and music.

When a nation fills a political boundary, it is a nation-State, like Norway, or Denmark, or Sweden or Ireland.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
It has never been among the major causes of the U.S. dollar’s inflation; on the contrary, it’s certainly among inflation's victims.
More deception.

On the Economics Forum where you got beat down before bringing your drive to the P&OC Forum, no one ever said or implied the federal minimum wage causes Monetary Inflation.

Your inability to comprehend Inflation is the problem.

An increase in the federal minimum wage can cause Wage Inflation. Wage Inflation need not exist country-wide. It can exist regionally, State-wide or locally.

An increase in the minimum wage by the federal government, a State or a municipality will increase Demand-pull Inflation.

When Demand-pull Inflation exists, people often seek substitutes, because they cost less.

By seeking substitutes, it stabilizes or reduces Demand, which results in price increases for goods and services affected by Demand-pull Inflation to occur at slower rates.

Increasing the minimum wage allows people who were seeking substitutes to purchase the original goods and services, which increases Demand and results in higher prices, thus Demand-pull Inflation.

Increasing the federal minimum wage results in Wage Inflation locally.

That's proven by the fact that every time the federal government raises minimum wage, the federal government has also without exception and without fail raised the bar for the federal poverty level.

So, the people "in poverty" are out of poverty only until the US Census Bureau recalculates the federal poverty rate, and then they're right back "in poverty."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
No employees are poorer and no enterprises suffer any competitive disadvantage to any USA enterprises due to the FMW rate.
Massive fail.

The increase from $5.15/hour to $7.25/hour decimated the US Export Industry.

Approximately 3 Million jobs directly and indirectly related to the Export Industry were lost because they could no longer compete against China, Vietnam et al.

The direct jobs would be those like packaging and minor assembly type jobs.

Indirect jobs would be those who supply intermediate finished goods and finished goods for use in the industry.

When a company packaging products for another company lays-off workers, then the companies that supply the packaging material and other goods have reduced orders, so they lay-off employees.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
...but although the elimination of our minimum wage laws would be greatly detrimental to our nation’s net social and economic well-being,...
No one is advocating the elimination of the minimum wage. They're advocating the elimination of the federal minimum wage.

Obviously, you either don't understand the difference, or you enjoy creating Straw Men.

According to your own government, there is a huge difference in Cost-of-Living throughout the US.

$26.90/hour - $6.92/hour = ~$20/hour

The federal government cannot set a minimum wage that will be fair and just for everyone, but States and cities can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
I suppose most USA’s population, (significantly more than a 10% plurality) to some extent approve of federal minimum rate’s existence. There are much fewer among wealthy or competent people that are opposed to the federal minimum rate.
10% is not a plurality and your use of Logical Fallacy is not persuasive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
A great proportion of minimum rate opponents lack self-esteem.
Not relevant, but you're welcome to use your own money to pay for their psychological counseling.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
The minimum wage critically effects no less than the lowest 20th percentile and substantially affects the remainder of lowest 40th percentile of USA's wage earners.
Not relevant.

The Laws of Economics do not care how wages are apportioned throughout a society unless you attempt to meddle in which case the Law of Economics will slam you with wave after wave economic punishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
GuyNTexas, I'm absolutely correct, except when I'm not.
You're not absolutely correct. You have no training or education in Economics and you have no facts to support your false conclusions based on cherry-picked data.

You still cling to the false belief that $1 of imports equals $1 of GDP in spite of 200 years of evidence proving that $1 of imports increases GDP by $8 to $20.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
The federal minimum wage rate is a minimum. It does not control product prices or wages and is not among the primary factors that affect the U.S. Dollars rate of inflation. Regardless if the federal minimum rate is or is not increased, annual inflation does occur.
Another Straw Man. No one ever claimed the minimum wage causes Monetary Inflation. It is a proven fact that minimum wage does cause Wage Inflation and Demand-pull Inflation, which results in higher prices for goods and services.

You also lied when you claimed that it does not control product prices.

There are over 58,500 long-term care facilities in the US, including nursing homes, rehab facilities and hospices.

An increase in the federal minimum wage will do all of the following:

1) Increase the cost of operating a long-term care facility.
2) Increase the price users must pay for long-term care facilities.
3) Deplete the HI (Medicare) Trust Fund faster.
4) Result in an HI tax increase which will erode the minimum wage increase
5) Increase the cost of Medicaid
6) Result in States increasing income taxes or sales taxes to pay for the increased cost in Medicaid further eroding the benefit of a minimum wage increase
7) Increase the federal government's cost of Medicaid
8) Result in the federal government reducing spending on other programs to pay for the cost of Medicaid
9) Result in an higher monthly deficit for the federal government
10) Increase the cost of private insurance for everyone which further erodes the benefit of increasing the minimum wage

That's why minimum wage is best left to the States and cities.
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Old Yesterday, 01:57 PM
 
Location: OH->FL->NJ
10,150 posts, read 8,157,778 times
Reputation: 4334
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Ottomobeale, due to the minimum rate's increase finally attaining $15/Hr., the rates for those that were previously earning $15 have increased by amounts somewhat more than that of the minimum rate, but the proportional increases of those higher rates are less than that of the minimum rate. Employees wage rate's purchasing powers are generally increased due to the minimum wage rate increase.

But if prior to the increase, there were fewer jobs available to an unemployed $15 worker, that worker may very well accept a lesser challenging job at lesser wage rate and effectively displace another lesser qualified employee.
When the minimum wage rate increases, such occurrences do, (and I suppose should) continue to occur.
I think we are agreeing but it boils to this:

You are a hiring manager at a retail store hiring for a cashier. You are doing well and have already accounted for the increase in wages.
2 people apply. Yes extreme example.

Clean Carla. Someones stereotypical mom. Everything about her screams "mom" Speech indicates perhaps a bit of college. Got a 92 on your math test.
Tattoo Ted. Inked head to toe including neck. Speech indicates an 8th grade education. Got a 70 on your math test.

(In the alternate universe of paying $7.25 carla never bothered to apply.)

In my scenario she saw the ad at $15 thinking an extra 750 dollars a month net would really help her family. 350 would not have cut it.
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Old Yesterday, 03:21 PM
 
1,344 posts, read 704,088 times
Reputation: 368
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuyNTexas View Post
I can see this debate going nowhere. Nevertheless, as I’ve painfully detailed how the FMW will harm the very workers its supposed to help, that alone proves the scheme illogical. While this is reason enough to dismiss it, the greater implications of government intrusion and overreach have much longer term negative consequences.

Funny that you’d allege that opponents are the ones unable to fully consider the issue, when it is actually you having failed to even address the deeper issues presented against the measure.

I say there is some serious projection happening here.
GuyNTexas, I generally post within the economics forum.
You may have surmised that I'm humble; that's among my many excellent attributes.
I'm shy and demure. I'll kick the defecation out of anyone that believes otherwise.

I do not want to appear as a braggart. I rely upon my publicist, Mircea to perform that task for me.
Refer to post#58.
correction: the purchasing power of the minimum rate critically affects the 20th percentile and SUBSTANTIALLY affects the 40th percentile of employees purchasing powers.
I don't suppose that to be sufficient to "greatly" affect the median wage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
Mircea, the minimum wage rate is applied to the least desirable employee or applicant for the least challenging job. They are the people in the poorest of negotiating positions.
Due to the concepts of wage differentials, U.S. Federal minimum rate affects USA's all other wage rates.

USA's median family income's purchasing power is highly indicative of our living standards and is greatly affected by the purchasing power of our median rate, (which in turn is affected by the purchasing power of the minimum wage rate).
If the purchasing power of the minimum wage rate is poorer, the median rate and the living standards of the nation are consequentially poorer than otherwise.

Although I prefer a targeted purchasing power to eventually become significantly greater than that of the minimum's February-1968 rate, U.S. House Resolution #528 does not displease me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supposn View Post
How inflationary is the federal minimum wage rate?

Although labor contributes a substantial portion, labor is only a portion of aggregate products' costs; (this is true even among service products). The federal minimum wage rate effects Low-wage labor and has extremely little proportional effect upon higher wage rates, it is not among the primary causes of U.S. dollar's losses of purchasing power.
The federal minimum wage rate's purchasing power's much less a cause and much more a victim of U.S. Dollar's inflation.
Federal minimum wage rate's purchasing power's purpose is to reduce incidences and extents of poverty among USA's working-poor.

Last edited by Supposn; Yesterday at 04:25 PM..
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