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Old 08-05-2019, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Out West
23,415 posts, read 17,299,241 times
Reputation: 27165

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Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945 View Post
You have hit on something that I have never been able to grasp. Why are some people so fearful of OUR OWN government ? In all my years on this planet, I have never once thought the government, or the police, were out to get me. How did some people get this conspiracy driven idea that we need to worry about our government, to the point they need to have their own arsenal ?

...
Because you've had the luxury of not living in a country where the government DID give people a reason to fear them.

Not everyone who is a U.S. citizen was born here. In case you forgot.

As for the rest of them, because they have either paid attention to what has happened in other countries, or have read history and realize that the Founding Fathers knew exactly why they needed to include the 2nd Amendment into the Constitution.

 
Old 08-05-2019, 02:11 PM
 
20,069 posts, read 12,618,840 times
Reputation: 11246
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker View Post
Many people say that we need the right to own weapons such as an AK47 so that we can protect ourselves from an abusive government.

I would argue that this is not true.


1...Our military takes an oath to defend the constitution or in other words the rights of the people. In Nazi Germany they took an oath to Hitler, etc...not the rights of the people. Our military is staffed by good people overall who hold the protection of the constitution in high value.

2...In similar countries with similar constitutional values like France, the UK, Australia....which have reduced gun rights...you don't see an oppressive government beating up the people. Because as above, the military would turn on the government if it ever did that.

3...The military has high tech weapons and vehicles...an AK47 wouldn't be effective for fighting against that either.

4...The same reason that many don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons is the same reason that many don't want anyone to have AK47s. The more weapons of mass destruction out there the more likely they are to fall into wrong hands and be used for evil.


1. The German military pledged an oath to Germany. Only the SS took a loyalty pledge to Hitler.


2. Cambodia did not "beat up on its people" until Pol Pot came to power- then he killed millions. France "beat up on its people" with a bloody revolution, in which thousands went to the guillotine. The UK underwent a very bloody Civil War, in which their monarch was deposed and thousands died. Italy became a fascist nation and oppressed its people.


Czechloslovokia and Poland had vibrant democracies prior to WW2- after WW2 they were oppressive regimes.


3. A primitive Vietnamese army and the Viet Cong defeated the same US military.


4. An Ak-47 is not a weapon of mass destruction.






Your arguments are completely fallacious.
 
Old 08-05-2019, 02:11 PM
 
10,964 posts, read 13,892,069 times
Reputation: 6471
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
My rights to self preservation how I see fit, supersedes anyone's feelings.
Your right to self preservation..which in your case is myopically based around your possession of weapons..and the affect is has on public policy..has led to an increased threat to the self preservation of many more people.

Because one viewpoint is paranoid, unstable, and desires the availability of violence at a moments notice, does not mean the rest of society should always cater to that viewpoint.
 
Old 08-05-2019, 02:14 PM
 
7,400 posts, read 2,681,756 times
Reputation: 4067
Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Recess View Post
I don't need a reason to own anything.
First and most basic principle.

To that point, and addressing the OP - when the 2nd Amendment's ABSOLUTE protection of the natural, individual right to keep and bear arms (own and make use of property of a specific type) was added to the Bill of Rights, there was no qualification of type of arms nor some certificate of need attachment.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Period. End of line.

Now, to the point that the OP makes about "what is needed to protect ourselves from government" I would agree that no one specific type of weapon is a strategic/tactical panacea, and that's because I follow the maxim of Gunnery Sergeant Hartman - "Your rifle is only a tool. It is a hard heart that kills."

The only protection, therefore, from a government bent on oppressing you is the will to to say no and the hard heart to back that will up with action. All manner of weapons and tactics will suffice, in the hands of those willing and ready to employ them against said government, which is to say against the troops that government sends to oppress you.

Ask the quite hardened troops of Vietnam, Afghanistan, Central America, etc who have managed to repel one invasion/occupation after another with not much more than rag tag militias toting a single rifle and maybe 100 rounds per man. Afghanistan is especially instructive because it shows how far a very small force can go with just the combination of marksman training and absolute willingness to kill people bent on oppressing you. The mujahadeen, btw, tend to operate in semi-auto, aimed shooting...and they are so effective at it that 17 years later, our 3rd President to deal with them has publicly advocated almost total withdrawal. A willing marksman and his rifle can accomplish quite a bit.
 
Old 08-05-2019, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Florida
64,621 posts, read 35,202,012 times
Reputation: 10808
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker View Post
Many people say that we need the right to own weapons such as an AK47 so that we can protect ourselves from an abusive government.

I would argue that this is not true.


1...Our military takes an oath to defend the constitution or in other words the rights of the people. In Nazi Germany they took an oath to Hitler, etc...not the rights of the people. Our military is staffed by good people overall who hold the protection of the constitution in high value.

2...In similar countries with similar constitutional values like France, the UK, Australia....which have reduced gun rights...you don't see an oppressive government beating up the people. Because as above, the military would turn on the government if it ever did that.

3...The military has high tech weapons and vehicles...an AK47 wouldn't be effective for fighting against that either.

4...The same reason that many don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons is the same reason that many don't want anyone to have AK47s. The more weapons of mass destruction out there the more likely they are to fall into wrong hands and be used for evil.
It was created because they figured militias might be needed in case of coups, which the founders were afraid of. It was copied from the English bill of rights.

And yes, the idea of people with AR-15 fighting against the US military is ridiculous.
 
Old 08-05-2019, 02:21 PM
 
7,400 posts, read 2,681,756 times
Reputation: 4067
Quote:
Originally Posted by don1945 View Post
You have hit on something that I have never been able to grasp. Why are some people so fearful of OUR OWN government ? In all my years on this planet, I have never once thought the government, or the police, were out to get me. How did some people get this conspiracy driven idea that we need to worry about our government, to the point they need to have their own arsenal ?
The first and most famous of our founding documents - the Declaration of Independence. That's where the "nutty conspiracy theory" of government out to get you came from. That and the 20th century murder tally (thx, No_Recess) of ~260 million at the hands of various governments.

Government will always and forever be the single greatest threat to your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. It was true in 1776 and it is true to this very day.

That you've never thought of it means that their compulsory K-12 indoctrination worked on you, and that their welfare state opiates have you in the properly lethargic mental state such that you never properly assess threats.
 
Old 08-05-2019, 02:27 PM
 
9,112 posts, read 5,275,370 times
Reputation: 9365
our military took the oath of the constitution but then congress is doing everything they can to do away with the constitution
 
Old 08-05-2019, 02:28 PM
 
10,573 posts, read 4,887,709 times
Reputation: 5768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
First and most basic principle.

To that point, and addressing the OP - when the 2nd Amendment's ABSOLUTE protection of the natural, individual right to keep and bear arms (own and make use of property of a specific type) was added to the Bill of Rights, there was no qualification of type of arms nor some certificate of need attachment.

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Period. End of line.

Now, to the point that the OP makes about "what is needed to protect ourselves from government" I would agree that no one specific type of weapon is a strategic/tactical panacea, and that's because I follow the maxim of Gunnery Sergeant Hartman - "Your rifle is only a tool. It is a hard heart that kills."

The only protection, therefore, from a government bent on oppressing you is the will to to say no and the hard heart to back that will up with action. All manner of weapons and tactics will suffice, in the hands of those willing and ready to employ them against said government, which is to say against the troops that government sends to oppress you.

Ask the quite hardened troops of Vietnam, Afghanistan, Central America, etc who have managed to repel one invasion/occupation after another with not much more than rag tag militias toting a single rifle and maybe 100 rounds per man. Afghanistan is especially instructive because it shows how far a very small force can go with just the combination of marksman training and absolute willingness to kill people bent on oppressing you. The mujahadeen, btw, tend to operate in semi-auto, aimed shooting...and they are so effective at it that 17 years later, our 3rd President to deal with them has publicly advocated almost total withdrawal. A willing marksman and his rifle can accomplish quite a bit.
And they beat the Russian army before we went to Afghanistan.
 
Old 08-05-2019, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Ft. Myers
18,555 posts, read 11,731,380 times
Reputation: 39049
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
The first and most famous of our founding documents - the Declaration of Independence. That's where the "nutty conspiracy theory" of government out to get you came from. That and the 20th century murder tally (thx, No_Recess) of ~260 million at the hands of various governments.

Government will always and forever be the single greatest threat to your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness. It was true in 1776 and it is true to this very day.

That you've never thought of it means that their compulsory K-12 indoctrination worked on you, and that their welfare state opiates have you in the properly lethargic mental state such that you never properly assess threats.

Whew, it must be a bit**, going through life thinking like that. I can not begin to imagine what it must be like. How do the majority of us function and survive every day not worrying about stupid stuff like the government turning on us ?
 
Old 08-05-2019, 03:08 PM
 
Location: The Republic of Texas
68,070 posts, read 34,808,616 times
Reputation: 14701
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post
Didn't the OHIO shooter use a handgun?
Now video released, showed a long rifle, or carbine.
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