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Old 08-10-2019, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
30,813 posts, read 49,695,176 times
Reputation: 19281

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rstevens62 View Post
... However, if you go the illegal route...its cheap and easy. Just like illegal street drugs, full auto firearms pour into the US every year illegally, they are bought and sold on the black market, price varies by region, but in general, a 'used' full auto AK47 goes from $400 to about $1000.
If machine guns 'pour' into the USA, it would seem obvious that they must be used in crime a lot.

However in reality; the last 'mass shooting' that involved a machine gun was in the 1930s.

The most recent incident was; On September 15th, 1988, Patrolman Roger Waller of the Daton, OH police department, used his automatic MAC-11 .380 caliber submachine gun to kill a police informant.
Waller plead guilty in 1990, and he and an accomplice were sentenced to 18 years in prison.
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Old 08-10-2019, 02:33 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
14,432 posts, read 11,744,100 times
Reputation: 13489
Well, the lethality of a shotgun depends on the range at which it is being used to be sure and buck n ball rounds like the Win SXT as well as slugs can carry further. The standard AR round, 5.56, does not carry "massive" foot pounds at several hundred yards. That range is stretching it's effectiveness. 2-300 yards but not several as in 500 yards. The 5.56 is running out of steam a bit at that range.


The 7.62x39 AK round packs a bit more. If you could hit anything with an AK that range. The AK is a dismally inaccurate rifle and is lucky to have minute of bucket accuracy at 50-100yards. The round packs more steam but you could well use up a 30 round mag getting a single hit on target at 500 yards. The AR is far more accurate but it's standard round is about spent at that range though gaining hits is far more likely.


I've stretched my AR out that far and hit an 8 inch round x3/4 inch thick aluminum plate multiple times. 62 gr M855 round. The hits were stuck in the target tip deep like darts. I couldn't hit the plate with my AK. I got rid of the AKs. But at the ranges these mass shootings take place at which are usually within 50 yards yes, the rifles pack a lot more punch than a shotgun in terms of energy. The shotgun has the edge in hits to fired rounds.


These mass shooters now, they may well fire a 30 round magazine very quickly but they get more misses than hits. That's something that rarely comes up. The talking heads get ahold of the number of rounds fired by some shooter in a short space of time and infer that every round was a hit. That is not the case. They say the shooter fired 100 rounds in x seconds and there were say 9 or 10 casualties. The math never works. These rodent mass shooters fortunately miss more than they hit.


Unless the people they are shooting at are packed like sardines anyway. That is little comfort for those downrange of a nut with a rifle but it is true. Mass shooter types are not marksmen. I hope they never figure that out. A really proficient handgun shooter has a good chance against a mass shooter type at the ranges usually involved. Providing said handgun user gets a clear shot. Which cannot be counted on with people running everywhere and giving the goblin cover.


I've never been in a mass shooting situation and I pray I never am. But I have been in a defensive shooting situation. I was lucky. I had a clear shot and would likely be dead or crippled if I hadn't. In a mass shooting situation I hope I could at least offer fleeing innocents cover and distraction. But I hold no faith I would be given a clear shot.

Last edited by Ibginnie; Yesterday at 08:39 AM.. Reason: deleted quoted post
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Old 08-10-2019, 02:37 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,607 posts, read 639,711 times
Reputation: 1141
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ildren/595807/

Article from today by former Joint Chiefs chair (and Navy Admiral) Mike Mullen.

Quote:
But these weapons are for war; they are not for sport. Assault weapons are designed to kill as many people as possible in the shortest time possible. As the tragic events last week in El Paso and Dayton attest, these weapons make it virtually impossible for law-enforcement agencies to stop those bent on taking lives. In Dayton, heroic officers responded within 30 seconds, and yet the shooter still killed nine people.
I will say that the bolded (emphasis mine) does not really stand up to strict scrutiny. The 'shortest time possible' would be, let's say, 1 nanosecond (1 billionth of 1 sec). So no, you could not kill 'as many people as possible' in one nanosecond, even with the world's most powerful assault weapon.

Secondly, that guy could have killed those nine people with a semi-automatic handgun such as a Glock with a high caliper clip. Maybe even more, since the handgun would presumably be more maneuverable. What is needed is not just to ban assault weapons, but Glocks too. It's my understanding that they are not assault weapons, but I could be wrong on that.
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Old 08-10-2019, 04:05 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
14,432 posts, read 11,744,100 times
Reputation: 13489
Quote:
Originally Posted by travis t View Post
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ildren/595807/

Article from today by former Joint Chiefs chair (and Navy Admiral) Mike Mullen.



I will say that the bolded (emphasis mine) does not really stand up to strict scrutiny. The 'shortest time possible' would be, let's say, 1 nanosecond (1 billionth of 1 sec). So no, you could not kill 'as many people as possible' in one nanosecond, even with the world's most powerful assault weapon.

Secondly, that guy could have killed those nine people with a semi-automatic handgun such as a Glock with a high caliper clip. Maybe even more, since the handgun would presumably be more maneuverable. What is needed is not just to ban assault weapons, but Glocks too. It's my understanding that they are not assault weapons, but I could be wrong on that.

(sigh), No, there is no such thing as an "assault pistol." Your terminology still needs a lot of improvement. High caliper? The Glock comes standard with a 15-17 round capacity magazine. A 30 is available after market should someone feel the need. Maneuverabilty of a handgun does not make it more lethal than any rifle. Even a light weight cartridge like the ARs 5.56 is more effective than a 9mm or even 45 ACP. Two standard rounds the Glock chambers 40 SW and 10 mm being others. All but the 10 being carried commonly by police.


Contrary to what many believe the ARs standard 5.56 chambering is not some power house magical chambering for a rifle. It is a lightweight originally designed as a varmint cartridge. The military adopted it because of its light weight and for a soldiers ability to carry more ammunition.


And "military type" ammunition is not more lethal despite its "military" designation. Truth be known it it less so than civilian rounds for varmint hunting. If our going to ban the Glock for it's supposed abilities that just might upset a bunch of cops. Oh but I assume they will still be allowed their fully auto true "military" type M4s, Glocks and other 15-17 shot sidearms? Like the HK, SIG Berretta and others?


Tell me, if the cops feel that regular patrolmen need such weapons to patrol the streets I live on sporadically 8 hours a day, between paperwork, why is it I should be denied a semi auto only AR15 and a 15-17 shot pistol? Since when did cops become forward deployed combat troops? Cops not only have full auto as standard they also have heavy weapons up to 50 BMG, armored vehicles, grenade launchers an other military gear. If things are indeed that bad out here trying to take away my AR is not going to happen.


Not going to happen anyway.
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Old 08-10-2019, 04:12 PM
 
8,426 posts, read 2,503,014 times
Reputation: 5834
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker View Post
Many people say that we need the right to own weapons such as an AK47 so that we can protect ourselves from an abusive government.

I would argue that this is not true.


1...Our military takes an oath to defend the constitution or in other words the rights of the people. In Nazi Germany they took an oath to Hitler, etc...not the rights of the people. Our military is staffed by good people overall who hold the protection of the constitution in high value.

2...In similar countries with similar constitutional values like France, the UK, Australia....which have reduced gun rights...you don't see an oppressive government beating up the people.
Yeah, you do.
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:39 AM
 
Location: San Diego
35,715 posts, read 32,470,899 times
Reputation: 20140
Default Vote for Joe Biden to ban assault weapons

Assault weapons aren't a real thing.

A ban is simply symbolic and the last "ban" didn't ban anything just like another won't keep people from buying center fire, semi-auto long guns like the AR-15 and AK-47.

Except for those things it sounds like a great idea.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_weapon

Conservative writer Rich Lowry said that assault weapon is a "manufactured term."[24] Joseph P. Tartaro of the Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) wrote in 1994: "One of the key elements of the anti-gun strategy to gull the public into supporting bans on the so-called 'assault weapons' is to foster confusion. As stated previously, the public does not know the difference between a full automatic and a semi-automatic firearm."[4] Robert Crook, executive director of the Coalition of Connecticut Sportsmen, said "the term 'assault weapon,' as used by the media, is a media invention."[6]
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:51 AM
 
9,971 posts, read 4,699,889 times
Reputation: 5581
Biden has proven in the past that he knows nothing about guns.
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:23 AM
 
Location: San Diego
35,715 posts, read 32,470,899 times
Reputation: 20140
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
Biden has proven in the past that he knows nothing about guns.
Both he and Harris have added this new boogey man to their campaigns.
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Old 08-11-2019, 11:34 AM
 
Location: Cape Cod
11,961 posts, read 8,366,856 times
Reputation: 20536
Good ol Uncle Joe on guns... This is the same guy that suggested if you hear a prowler that you should go out onto your balcony with a shotgun and fire 2 blasts into the air...



There is nothing like telling people to break firearms laws Joe and how many of us have a balcony?

The guy is so out of touch it is embarrassing that he is the front runner for the Dems.



Trump has his faults but Lord help us if Uncle Joe should win in 2020.
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Old 08-11-2019, 02:59 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,607 posts, read 639,711 times
Reputation: 1141
Interesting that although the 1994 ban (signed by Clinton) was termed the 'Feinstein Amendment' after Dianne Feinstein, Joe Biden has claimed credit for it being his brainchild. He also claimed similar for the Patriot Act of 2001.

I don't know how much either of these claims are true. It does seem unlikely that a guy who advised firing a gun up into the air would be able to craft such legislation. Even I know that you don't shoot a gun up into the air. The bullet is going to come down and could land on somebody or something.
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