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Old 08-15-2019, 06:09 PM
 
Location: Lost in Montana *recalculating*...
12,191 posts, read 15,806,110 times
Reputation: 12528

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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuakerBaker View Post
Many people say that we need the right to own weapons such as an AK47 so that we can protect ourselves from an abusive government.

I would argue that this is not true.


1...Our military takes an oath to defend the constitution or in other words the rights of the people. In Nazi Germany they took an oath to Hitler, etc...not the rights of the people. Our military is staffed by good people overall who hold the protection of the constitution in high value.

2...In similar countries with similar constitutional values like France, the UK, Australia....which have reduced gun rights...you don't see an oppressive government beating up the people. Because as above, the military would turn on the government if it ever did that.

3...The military has high tech weapons and vehicles...an AK47 wouldn't be effective for fighting against that either.

4...The same reason that many don't want Iran to have nuclear weapons is the same reason that many don't want anyone to have AK47s. The more weapons of mass destruction out there the more likely they are to fall into wrong hands and be used for evil.
We need AR-15ís, tanks and ballistic middles to protect our Democracy from the current administration.

God Save the 2nd Am

 
Old 08-15-2019, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville, FL
7,305 posts, read 7,956,131 times
Reputation: 5905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
Weaver resisted arrest, he could have easily turned himself into the authorities. I'm not dismissing the FBI total misjudgment, they were wrong in their actions. Those were not "government agents" that shot the Kent State students, they were very green national guardsmen that overreacted to the situation.


So these are the incidents that justify gun ownership of military style weapons, we need to tolerate 15,000 murders each year in case the government attacks us,
We don’t need to tolerate anything. We merely need to convince a bunch of people stuck on the “guns are bad” mantra to start looking for actual solutions to violence. Until the violence is addressed, we will probably continue to see mass shootings on occasion.
 
Old 08-15-2019, 06:15 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
14,533 posts, read 11,889,511 times
Reputation: 13531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
Weaver resisted arrest, he could have easily turned himself into the authorities. I'm not dismissing the FBI total misjudgment, they were wrong in their actions. Those were not "government agents" that shot the Kent State students, they were very green national guardsmen that overreacted to the situation.


So these are the incidents that justify gun ownership of military style weapons, we need to tolerate 15,000 murders each year in case the government attacks us,

You're still struggling man. Nowhere near 15000 people are killed with service style rifles in a year. You're quoting a total death involving all firearms number. Which are mostly handguns in suicides, criminal killing much involving gangs and LE killing criminal suspects.


And the Kent State NG types, green or not, were not agents no. They were US Army soldiers just like it said on their uniforms. Right over the left pocket. Randy Weaver didn't surrender because he feared he and his family would be killed in custody. And judging by the conduct of the federal agents who were there that was a very legitimate concern.


Then Lon Horiuchi shot and killed his wife while she was holding their baby and confirmed his fears. I think I would have done the same as Weaver did. But still even after that he never fired one round back. Before and after Vicki Weaver was murdered. The baby could as easily have been killed to but Horiuchi didn't care. He just wanted to kill him some rebels.


This sort of attitude is prevalent in LE from local to federal these days. They are even having kill em' all let God sort em' out sort of slogans anodized on their weapons. Like that AZ cop that killed a suspect who was on his knees while the cops played Simon Says with him. Put 5 rounds from his M4 into the guy. His weapon had YOU"RE FU**** emblazoned on it. The man killed was named Daniel Blainsford and this happened in La Quinta inn Mesa AZ.


Such things put onto LE weapons is not even an isolated case. There's a LOT of would be Lon Horiuchi's out there. It's not going to happen right away, but the government will cross a line in a big way one day. You go ahead and trust and defend the government. Me?Not so much. But I have more pressing concerns right now I may need my weapons for. Including my service type rifle.
 
Old 08-15-2019, 06:29 PM
 
10,553 posts, read 4,879,264 times
Reputation: 5763
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
Weaver resisted arrest, he could have easily turned himself into the authorities. I'm not dismissing the FBI total misjudgment, they were wrong in their actions. Those were not "government agents" that shot the Kent State students, they were very green national guardsmen that overreacted to the situation.


So these are the incidents that justify gun ownership of military style weapons, we need to tolerate 15,000 murders each year in case the government attacks us,
The sheriff offered to bring Weaver in, the FBI declined. They then killed an unarmed woman holding a child. NG are government agents,.
 
Old 08-15-2019, 08:03 PM
 
Location: NW Nevada
14,533 posts, read 11,889,511 times
Reputation: 13531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
The sheriff offered to bring Weaver in, the FBI declined. They then killed an unarmed woman holding a child. NG are government agents,.

The long and short of all the tuff I brought up is government misconduct. Knowing misconduct. They just trampled the Weavers like a rhino in a glass house. Trying to make an example of him and his family. Lon Horiuchi should be in Leavenworth right now. But he isn't.


Smug, arrogant, freaking punk. And all levels of law enforcement are just full of guys like him. Itching to kill someone like that cop in Mesa AZ with the cute slogan on his rifle. The judge ruled that as inadmissible to. LE watching out for LE. Good old blue wall nonsense.


I've dealt with BLM badges to. They suck canal water. Government revenue and land acquisition agents. If you're a little guy using "public land" for anything whether you're paid up and legal or not you're a target .All that matters is big money interests.
 
Old 08-15-2019, 11:33 PM
 
11,651 posts, read 3,087,539 times
Reputation: 7797
Quote:
Originally Posted by PedroMartinez View Post
You can buy a fleet of tanks.

Nukes are a different animal, much like chemical weapons due to their natute of being dangerous for lack of constant care.

The 2nd clearly states that I can be armed, even with a tank.
Nukes are also not a commonly used weapon of war, so private ownership wouldnt apply anyway.
 
Old 08-16-2019, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Long Island
34,539 posts, read 14,496,568 times
Reputation: 7428
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
You're still struggling man. Nowhere near 15000 people are killed with service style rifles in a year. You're quoting a total death involving all firearms number. Which are mostly handguns in suicides, criminal killing much involving gangs and LE killing criminal suspects.


And the Kent State NG types, green or not, were not agents no. They were US Army soldiers just like it said on their uniforms. Right over the left pocket. Randy Weaver didn't surrender because he feared he and his family would be killed in custody. And judging by the conduct of the federal agents who were there that was a very legitimate concern.


Then Lon Horiuchi shot and killed his wife while she was holding their baby and confirmed his fears. I think I would have done the same as Weaver did. But still even after that he never fired one round back. Before and after Vicki Weaver was murdered. The baby could as easily have been killed to but Horiuchi didn't care. He just wanted to kill him some rebels.


This sort of attitude is prevalent in LE from local to federal these days. They are even having kill em' all let God sort em' out sort of slogans anodized on their weapons. Like that AZ cop that killed a suspect who was on his knees while the cops played Simon Says with him. Put 5 rounds from his M4 into the guy. His weapon had YOU"RE FU**** emblazoned on it. The man killed was named Daniel Blainsford and this happened in La Quinta inn Mesa AZ.


Such things put onto LE weapons is not even an isolated case. There's a LOT of would be Lon Horiuchi's out there. It's not going to happen right away, but the government will cross a line in a big way one day. You go ahead and trust and defend the government. Me?Not so much. But I have more pressing concerns right now I may need my weapons for. Including my service type rifle.
I didn't mean to insinuate those deaths are just from assault weapons, they are far from the only problem but certainly the weapon of choice in mass shootings. I don't see any upside in assault weapons in the hands of civilians. I'm not defending the government in those situations, just pointing out that these things could have been resolved peacefully if guns were not present.
 
Old 08-16-2019, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Long Island
34,539 posts, read 14,496,568 times
Reputation: 7428
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
The long and short of all the tuff I brought up is government misconduct. Knowing misconduct. They just trampled the Weavers like a rhino in a glass house. Trying to make an example of him and his family. Lon Horiuchi should be in Leavenworth right now. But he isn't.


Smug, arrogant, freaking punk. And all levels of law enforcement are just full of guys like him. Itching to kill someone like that cop in Mesa AZ with the cute slogan on his rifle. The judge ruled that as inadmissible to. LE watching out for LE. Good old blue wall nonsense.


I've dealt with BLM badges to. They suck canal water. Government revenue and land acquisition agents. If you're a little guy using "public land" for anything whether you're paid up and legal or not you're a target .All that matters is big money interests.
I do blame the FBI for overreacting but the siege with the Weavers went on for 11 days, they could have easily surrendered. If they were innocent this could have been resolved peacefully.
 
Old 08-16-2019, 08:11 AM
 
Location: NW Nevada
14,533 posts, read 11,889,511 times
Reputation: 13531
Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodnight View Post
I didn't mean to insinuate those deaths are just from assault weapons, they are far from the only problem but certainly the weapon of choice in mass shootings. I don't see any upside in assault weapons in the hands of civilians. I'm not defending the government in those situations, just pointing out that these things could have been resolved peacefully if guns were not present.

Thing is,semi auto actual military surplus rifles have been in wide circulation with civilians since the 40s.M1 Garands were a common item is American households. And not once was one ever used in a mass shooting. That started in 1986 when Patrick Purdey used an AK to shoot up a Stockton CA school.


In all that preceding time a service style weapon was never used in any sort of mass shooting. And they were ubiquitous all over the country. The availability of such weapons has never been exactly lean. The AK was the bloodthirsty demon for a long time now it's the AR but far more powerful military semi autos have been in civilian hands in great numbers since the 40s. But no issues with them till 86. Charles Whitman used a 3 shot bolt action hunting rifle in his mass shooting in TX in 66.


So what's changed? Seriously more powerful military weapons have been in civilian hands for a very long time but it's only recently there have been problems. So, obviously it's not the guns. If they were the problem the flood of Garands that hit the civilian markets would have been daily carnage. But it wasn't.


Not one person ever went nuts with a Garand. State of the art military hardware in those times. Still a very formidable weapon. And this in a country dripping with combat vets returning from one of the bloodiest wars we have ever fought. Indeed, again, what has changed?
 
Old 08-16-2019, 10:31 AM
 
38,405 posts, read 16,666,185 times
Reputation: 8747
Quote:
Originally Posted by NVplumber View Post
You're still struggling man. Nowhere near 15000 people are killed with service style rifles in a year. You're quoting a total death involving all firearms number. Which are mostly handguns in suicides, criminal killing much involving gangs and LE killing criminal suspects.


And the Kent State NG types, green or not, were not agents no. They were US Army soldiers just like it said on their uniforms. Right over the left pocket. Randy Weaver didn't surrender because he feared he and his family would be killed in custody. And judging by the conduct of the federal agents who were there that was a very legitimate concern.


Then Lon Horiuchi shot and killed his wife while she was holding their baby and confirmed his fears. I think I would have done the same as Weaver did. But still even after that he never fired one round back. Before and after Vicki Weaver was murdered. The baby could as easily have been killed to but Horiuchi didn't care. He just wanted to kill him some rebels.


This sort of attitude is prevalent in LE from local to federal these days. They are even having kill em' all let God sort em' out sort of slogans anodized on their weapons. Like that AZ cop that killed a suspect who was on his knees while the cops played Simon Says with him. Put 5 rounds from his M4 into the guy. His weapon had YOU"RE FU**** emblazoned on it. The man killed was named Daniel Blainsford and this happened in La Quinta inn Mesa AZ.


Such things put onto LE weapons is not even an isolated case. There's a LOT of would be Lon Horiuchi's out there. It's not going to happen right away, but the government will cross a line in a big way one day. You go ahead and trust and defend the government. Me?Not so much. But I have more pressing concerns right now I may need my weapons for. Including my service type rifle.
"You're still struggling man. Nowhere near 15000 people are killed with service style rifles in a year."


YOU are he one struggling with, "service style rifles"
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