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Old 08-09-2019, 02:16 AM
 
Location: Ohio
191 posts, read 36,508 times
Reputation: 94

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboteer View Post
The judged in Miranda's case made up a law out of thin air, that was never in the Constitution, and never passed by any legislature involved.
The Miranda decision was factually based on the right to the Assistance of Counsel, which is in the Constitution's 6th AM. Miranda was one of the decided consolidated/companion cases by SCOTUS. If you read the Arizona Supreme Court's En Banc opinion you will see that as the basis for the decision and appeal.

401 P.2nd 721.


From the SCOTUS Miranda Syllabus:

(f) Where an interrogation is conducted without the presence of an attorney and a statement is taken, a heavy burden rests on the Government to demonstrate that the defendant knowingly and intelligently waived his right to counsel. P. 475
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Old 08-09-2019, 03:15 AM
 
13,438 posts, read 10,268,921 times
Reputation: 16951
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboteer View Post
The "right to remain silent" isn't mentioned in the Constitution. But its close cousin, the prohibition of government to compel testimony against yourself, is. And since at the beginning of a case, people don't know what might incriminate you and what might no, this quickly turns into the "right to remain silent".

That right, along with the right to an attorney and some others, form the basis of the so-called "Miranda Rights". They are a vital part of our fair legal system, and it's unthinkable that a defendant be denied any of them.

What I didn't see in the Constitution, was any requirement that police officers must turn into Social Studies teachers and explain those rights to a suspect. Or that anything the suspect says must be thrown out of court if he didn't get his rights explained to him.
Well, there are a couple notable things here. Expecting police officers to enforce the law is their job. It does not render them social studies teachers.

Quote:
The "right" to have the rights explained to him, came from a case where a slimeball named Miranda was on trial. Some judge decided that since he didn't get his rights explicitly explained to him before talking, what he said was no longer "evidence", and must be disregarded by the jury. But it has no basis whatsoever in the Constitution.

The suspect MUST be allowed his rights, that is unquestionably correct. If he says he wants an attorney, one must be provided for him. If he says he doesn't want to talk, he cannot be forced. If he simply clamps his mouth shut and says nothing, ditto. But there is no requirement that anyone explain them to him. If they are not explained to him, and he talks (with or without a lawyer), anything he says can be used against him in court. Whether he got any advance explanations or not.

I once made a right turn on a red light (legal in my state), after deciding the car coming a quarter mile away was safely far enough away. Turned out the car coming was a cop, and he pulled me over. Told me that there was a sign at that intersection saying "No Right Turn On Red". I told him I didn't see any such sign. There was a big collection of signs there, mostly advertising. He said that one of them was a NRTOR sign, and gave me a ticket. I kept protesting the sign must have been well camouflaged, because I had looked carefully and had not seen it. He said that ignorance of the law and the situation is no excuse. Afterward I drove back to the intersection and checked carefully, and sure enough, there it was, second sign from the top, fourth from the left.

Point is, my ignorance of what law applied at that intersection, wasn't an excuse to avoid punishment.

But a suspect's ignorance of what rights he has before and during a trial, ARE an excuse to avoid punishment. Which is simply ignorant wishful thinking on the part of the judge. In Miranda's case, such supposed ignorance WAS turned into an excuse, despite there being NO law at the time saying he could dodge punishment for his crime due to his ignorance, if he had talked freely without coercion.

The judged in Miranda's case made up a law out of thin air, that was never in the Constitution, and never passed by any legislature involved.

They were wrong.

Miranda deserved those rights just as much as you and I do. But his ignorance of his rights is no reason to throw out things he said in court, or even to witnesses (or cops) outside of court.
One of the beautiful things about our legal system is due process. I like it.
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Old 08-09-2019, 03:20 AM
 
32,779 posts, read 26,908,698 times
Reputation: 19398
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboteer View Post
The "right to remain silent" isn't mentioned in the Constitution. But its close cousin, the prohibition of government to compel testimony against yourself, is. And since at the beginning of a case, people don't know what might incriminate you and what might no, this quickly turns into the "right to remain silent".

That right, along with the right to an attorney and some others, form the basis of the so-called "Miranda Rights". They are a vital part of our fair legal system, and it's unthinkable that a defendant be denied any of them.

What I didn't see in the Constitution, was any requirement that police officers must turn into Social Studies teachers and explain those rights to a suspect. Or that anything the suspect says must be thrown out of court if he didn't get his rights explained to him.

The "right" to have the rights explained to him, came from a case where a slimeball named Miranda was on trial. Some judge decided that since he didn't get his rights explicitly explained to him before talking, what he said was no longer "evidence", and must be disregarded by the jury. But it has no basis whatsoever in the Constitution.

The suspect MUST be allowed his rights, that is unquestionably correct. If he says he wants an attorney, one must be provided for him. If he says he doesn't want to talk, he cannot be forced. If he simply clamps his mouth shut and says nothing, ditto. But there is no requirement that anyone explain them to him. If they are not explained to him, and he talks (with or without a lawyer), anything he says can be used against him in court. Whether he got any advance explanations or not.

I once made a right turn on a red light (legal in my state), after deciding the car coming a quarter mile away was safely far enough away. Turned out the car coming was a cop, and he pulled me over. Told me that there was a sign at that intersection saying "No Right Turn On Red". I told him I didn't see any such sign. There was a big collection of signs there, mostly advertising. He said that one of them was a NRTOR sign, and gave me a ticket. I kept protesting the sign must have been well camouflaged, because I had looked carefully and had not seen it. He said that ignorance of the law and the situation is no excuse. Afterward I drove back to the intersection and checked carefully, and sure enough, there it was, second sign from the top, fourth from the left.

Point is, my ignorance of what law applied at that intersection, wasn't an excuse to avoid punishment.

But a suspect's ignorance of what rights he has before and during a trial, ARE an excuse to avoid punishment. Which is simply ignorant wishful thinking on the part of the judge. In Miranda's case, such supposed ignorance WAS turned into an excuse, despite there being NO law at the time saying he could dodge punishment for his crime due to his ignorance, if he had talked freely without coercion.

The judged in Miranda's case made up a law out of thin air, that was never in the Constitution, and never passed by any legislature involved.

They were wrong.

Miranda deserved those rights just as much as you and I do. But his ignorance of his rights is no reason to throw out things he said in court, or even to witnesses (or cops) outside of court.

i beg to differ with you. the miranda ruling was a good one. the rights you mentioned are codified in the constitution itself, including the right to remain silent just the difference in the use of the language from 1789 to today. they were put in the constitution, and thus the miranda ruling required, that LEOs inform the people they are arresting of their rights to prevent the LEOs from coercing a confession from a suspect.
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Old Yesterday, 03:42 PM
 
Location: San Diego
5,555 posts, read 1,545,851 times
Reputation: 3998
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbohm View Post
i beg to differ with you. the miranda ruling was a good one. the rights you mentioned are codified in the constitution itself, including the right to remain silent just the difference in the use of the language from 1789 to today. they were put in the constitution, and thus the miranda ruling required, that LEOs inform the people they are arresting of their rights to prevent the LEOs from coercing a confession from a suspect.
Simply saying "Oh no it isn't", isn't enough to refute the facts I have laid out.

Want to try again?
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Old Yesterday, 05:51 PM
 
33,313 posts, read 17,049,960 times
Reputation: 18149
Quote:
Originally Posted by jazzarama View Post
It actually was five judges, a 5-4 decision. One dissenter wrote:

"I have no desire whatsoever to share the responsibility for any such impact on the present criminal process. In some unknown number of cases, the Court's rule will return a killer, a rapist or other criminal to the streets and to the environment which produced him, to repeat his crime whenever it pleases him. As a consequence, there will not be a gain, but a loss, in human dignity."
Turns out he was wrong. In practice, the Miranda warning has flipped the situation on its head - say the magic words, and it's now assumed that the person being custodially interrogated is not under any form of coercion. And police officers are good at getting confessions - so good, in fact, they quite often get confessions from people who didn't even commit a crime.
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Old Yesterday, 05:55 PM
 
33,313 posts, read 17,049,960 times
Reputation: 18149
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboteer View Post
Simply saying "Oh no it isn't", isn't enough to refute the facts I have laid out.

Want to try again?
I think I did an OK job of explaining above. Interrogation in police custody wasn't much of a thing when the Constitution was framed. The Supremes decided that being interrogated when you can't leave is inherently coercive. And so they came up with the Miranda warning. which has been an absolute godsend to US law enforcement.
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Old Yesterday, 06:19 PM
 
Location: Ohio
20,412 posts, read 14,512,354 times
Reputation: 16603
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roboteer View Post
What I didn't see in the Constitution, was any requirement that police officers must turn into Social Studies teachers and explain those rights to a suspect.
How do you know a cop is lying?

His lips are moving.

Police lie. All the time. And over the stupidest things.

When police aren't out-right fabricating things, they are exaggerating, or distorting or lying by omission.

The reason cops must be "social studies teachers" is because cops lied and repeatedly and routinely told suspects they were not entitled to any rights.

Not only did cops lie, they effectively engaged in unconscionable acts.

After you've been a work all day, police haul you in and interrogate you for 16 hours until maybe 11:00 AM the next morning, with nothing to eat, nothing to drink and no bathroom breaks.

Then they'd put you in a holding cell, and no, you're not going to get any sleep, and the police are going to make sure you don't get any sleep, and then maybe 2:00 PM they drag you back in for another 16-24 hour round of interrogation.

People would confess to a crime they didn't commit just to be able to use the bathroom.

People would confess to a crime they didn't commit just to get a glass of water.

People would confess to a crime they didn't commit in exchange for something to eat or to call someone to let family know they've been arrested.

That's what it was like in the US before the Supreme Court shut that **** down.

And on top of cops lying, prosecutors lie and both suborn perjury.

That's how my cousin's husband got convicted of a murder he didn't commit. He was in Arcadia with my cousin and a few other biker friends, and still got convicted of a murder in Tampa. The prosecutor and police coerced, threatened and bribed all the witnesses.

You can look up the D'Ambrosio case in Cleveland, Ohio.

The prosecutor withheld more than a dozen key pieces of exculpatory evidence, any one of which by itself cast reasonable doubt, or taken with one or two other pieces of evidence casts reasonable doubt or taken as a whole cast reasonable doubt.

Even after a federal judge ordered the prosecutor to surrender all exculpatory evidence within 180 days, the prosecutor thumbed his nose at the federal judge, who then released D'Ambrosio.

When you are arrested and prosecuted for a crime you didn't commit, you will understand and you will be singing a whole new song and dance.

And, contrary to what you believe, the social studies lesson is to remind the cops, not the suspects.
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Old Yesterday, 08:52 PM
 
Location: Brawndo-Thirst-Mutilator-Nation
16,801 posts, read 16,936,960 times
Reputation: 12966
Just remember, you do have a human right to not talk.

The last time the Polistapo shook me down, for no apparent reason, I said nothing to them........that really got their hackles up.
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Old Today, 05:47 AM
 
Location: *
8,250 posts, read 2,519,888 times
Reputation: 2303
Quote:
Originally Posted by somebodynew View Post
Well, there are a couple notable things here. Expecting police officers to enforce the law is their job. It does not render them social studies teachers.



One of the beautiful things about our legal system is due process. I like it.
Agree. The due process clause acts as a safeguard from arbitrary denial of life, liberty, or property by the government outside the sanction of law. The clause in the Fifth Amendment reads:

Quote:
No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.
While the clause in the Fourteenth Amendment says:

Quote:
...nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law.
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