Tax exodus accelerating:fla raking in billions (crime, dollars, education)

[oceangaia]

Originally Posted by sware2cod

After 2025, SALT deductions return. The tax plan has an expiration date. Corporate tax cuts don't expire but the rest of the tax changes expire after 2025.

They could be extended past then or ended before then, it just depends on who gets elected.

[craigiri]

I would never move anywhere due to tax policy...as an individual. There may be corporate benefits or other reasons....but, in the end, the difference (example) between a normal 8 to 10% stock market return and the 5% we've seen for the last two decades would dwarf the "tax game" wins and losses.

Maybe its the "Bogle" in me...having top health care and people (community) who aren't temporary is preferable to me to saving a few bucks on taxes. I also am spoiled when it comes to traffic. I don't do it. I worked 5 miles from my house for most of my life and then from home. In 12 years I don't think I've been in a traffic jam (in rural New England) more than can be counted on one hand.

I enjoy, for now, wintering in Florida and will continue if the Red Tide and other such things don't drive me away. But there is a difference between living and working somewhere and "wintering" there.

I wish there were some perfect places but most got too crowded long ago...

[beach43ofus]

Originally Posted by sware2cod

After 2025, SALT deductions return. The tax plan has an expiration date. Corporate tax cuts don't expire but the rest of the tax changes expire after 2025.

They would very likely be extended. I've even read they are considering eliminating the State and local tax deductions TOTALLY!

[oceangaia]

Originally Posted by craigiri

I would never move anywhere due to tax policy...as an individual. There may be corporate benefits or other reasons....but, in the end, the difference (example) between a normal 8 to 10% stock market return and the 5% we've seen for the last two decades would dwarf the "tax game" wins and losses.

What does state taxes have to do with stock market return? Staying in a high tax state doesn't mean you get 10% return instead of 5% return nor does moving to a low tax state mean you drop from a 10% return to 5%.

[beach43ofus]

If a person says they wouldn't select a place to stay/live due to the amount of taxes a place carries with it, they either don't make much money so don't care, or they have so much money, they can afford to spend excessive amounts on State and Local taxes w/o it hurting them too much.

I don't fit into either group, so State & Local taxes mean a lot to me. I'm saving $12,000/year in State Income taxes by living in Florida versus Georgia, so that's $1,000/month. In my World, that's a lot of money.

A relative of mine who lives in New Jersey pays $12,000 more a year in property taxes on a home that has the same market value as ours.

If I lived in New Jersey, instead of here n Florida, I'd be paying $24,000/yr more in State and local taxes, or $2,000/month when property taxes and state income taxes are added together.

The schools where he lives in New Jersey are no better than my local Sarasota County schools. His roads are worse. Police and Fire...same. Our Hospitals are better than theirs. Florida's University system is superior and costs much less than New Jerseys or most Colleges up East.

They have a lot more politcal corruption, and the government worker Pension plans are more deeply underwater than they are here. He's not getting SQUAT for all the extra money he's paying in State & local taxes. He's getting RIPPED OFF, and he knows it.

He's going broke In NJ, and wants to move to Florida, but his wife won't leave New Jersey yet because their grown children live there..for now at least. They are looking to get out too. The tax load may end the marriage at some point. Very sad to see all the taxes drain them dry and jeopardize their marriage.

[craigiri]

Originally Posted by oceangaia

What does state taxes have to do with stock market return? Staying in a high tax state doesn't mean you get 10% return instead of 5% return nor does moving to a low tax state mean you drop from a 10% return to 5%.

Life has to do with Life.
What I am saying is that - at various times in my life - my accountant and other people have told me how much money I would save by moving my domicile to Florida. True - I would have saved money, especially when I sold a company built up over decades.

My point is that what matters is not what you pay in taxes....but what you keep in the end. I have seen a lot of people make bad decisions to "save money" such as taking larger loans (deductions), buying more expensive cars and trucks (SUV tax credits) and even moving to other states.

IMHO, they don't end up better off. It's the tortoise and the hare. My sister may have saved taxes moving to FL, but when she went to work as a teacher with a Masters for 29K and lousy benefits, any savings went out the window.

It's a matter of longer term thinking....IMHO.

Those who are fairly broke aren't going to pay much in taxes in any case (Florida or otherwise), so they have no big reason to move domicile. Those who make a lot of money (Wall Streeters, Silicon Valley, Boston top biotech, etc.) make enough that they don't sit around thinking about how they can save a few thousand a year.

Also, the very nature of most income streams is that they rely on JOBS.....and other things which may pay more back in the old neighborhood.

These are all related when it comes to taxes. If taxes are so important, why aren't themany 10's of trillions off dollars worth of Bay Area companies running to Florida? Answer....well, sorta the same one I gave above.

It's the same old story. In PA we used to drive to NJ to get cheaper booze...but these days if you figure the gas, tolls and time you really aren't saving anything much.

That's just me. As I said, I know people who seem to spend 1/2 their time trying to "save money" by working every trick in the book. Very few of them are well off.

I pay low property taxes in Florida...well, if I add in homeowners insurance they are actually quite a bit higher than in New England (per 100K)....and we get universal health care and better education and lots of other things for our $$.

[vaughanwilliams]

Originally Posted by JimRom

This. I live in NE Florida (not Jax, but close) and my county is one of the fastest growing. The most common complaint I hear from northern transplants is the lack of services. Services which we've never needed here, but which they can't seem to live without.

Between the calls for more tax paid services and the number of busybodies moving here, my wife and I are seriously considering a move in the next year or two.

I'm leaving soon. The idea that Florida is a low cost state isn't true anymore. No income tax, but property insurance is outrageous and wages are still low. I suppose the run up in housing costs will benefit me but it's pretty hard for someone starting off. Too hot, too crowded, too many scumbags off all income levels.
Cheap doesn't guarantee quality of life and if I have to pay extra taxes to be free of Florida's never ending drama, so be it.
BTW, I've been in Florida since the early 60s.

[oceangaia]

Originally Posted by craigiri

Life has to do with Life.
What I am saying is that - at various times in my life - my accountant and other people have told me how much money I would save by moving my domicile to Florida. True - I would have saved money, especially when I sold a company built up over decades.

My point is that what matters is not what you pay in taxes....but what you keep in the end. I have seen a lot of people make bad decisions to "save money" such as taking larger loans (deductions), buying more expensive cars and trucks (SUV tax credits) and even moving to other states.

IMHO, they don't end up better off. It's the tortoise and the hare. My sister may have saved taxes moving to FL, but when she went to work as a teacher with a Masters for 29K and lousy benefits, any savings went out the window.

It's a matter of longer term thinking....IMHO.

First, the "exodus" isn't about people making at the lower end of income but people making higher incomes where the tax savings is very large. Or those no longer working and trying to protect what they have already made. Nobody here is advising anyone to make big sacrifices in income for a lower tax rate. In fact, that is why high tax states stand to suffer from this as it's mostly the higher income and higher wealth residents that are fleeing, not all residents.

Second, what you pay in taxes today can greatly affect what you keep "in the end". Saving $1000/month in taxes means you can put $1000/month additional into investments.

Third, you're trying to muddy the waters by mixing in those lowering taxes with those going into debt or "living large". There is no "they".


Fourth, you still didn't explain what state tax rate has to do with stock market returns.

[thecoalman]

Originally Posted by craigiri

.but, in the end, the difference (example) between a normal 8 to 10% stock market return and the 5% we've seen for the last two decades would dwarf the "tax game" wins and losses.

If you live in the state with the lower tax rate you have more money to invest into stocks.

[beach43ofus]

Originally Posted by oceangaia

First, the "exodus" isn't about people making at the lower end of income but people making higher incomes where the tax savings is very large. Or those no longer working and trying to protect what they have already made. Nobody here is advising anyone to make big sacrifices in income for a lower tax rate. In fact, that is why high tax states stand to suffer from this as it's mostly the higher income and higher wealth residents that are fleeing, not all residents.

Second, what you pay in taxes today can greatly affect what you keep "in the end". Saving $1000/month in taxes means you can put $1000/month additional into investments.

Third, you're trying to muddy the waters by mixing in those lowering taxes with those going into debt or "living large". There is no "they".


Fourth, you still didn't explain what state tax rate has to do with stock market returns.

And, his sister probably knew very well that she wouldn't make as much money teaching here in Florida than she made up East, but wanted the Florida lifestyle, so came anyways.

Don't hold your breath for any direct answers to direct questions. Did you see the Hannity-DeBlasio interview last week? Its probably on youtube. The one where DeBlasio failed to answer 1 question Hannity asked of him. That is what they do when they don't have any answers, or if they are trying to hide their real answers because they know they are wildly unpopular, and out of the mainstream. If you dont get a direct answer to a easy direct question, assume the worst possible answer, and go from there. These people will not enter into a normal dialogue because they know their logic is unsound.