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Old Yesterday, 03:12 PM
 
15,615 posts, read 8,002,350 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babe_Ruth View Post
Avon, hi..
I think Columbus' first voyage was more about individual will & determination, than 'good fortune'. Columbus spent years seeking financing & knowledge for his trip. Columbus' discovery didn't befall on Europe. It was earned by a brave man who was almost overthrown my his near mutinous first crew, & was dismissed by multiple royal courts.. it's strange and sad to me how cultural Marxists have largely discredited (and/or diminished) Columbus' accomplishment. The entire West has benefitted from the wealth & opportunities created by New World expansion, and now that legacy is solely viewed/judged by the subsequent sins of conquest, or his unprecedented journey is reduced to essentially dumb luck.. The general sins of conquest pinned on Columbus, often had nothing to do with Columbus or were not initiated by Columbus, but his insubordinate, incompetent subordinates & enemies left/appointed to administer the colonies.
Not sure what Marxist have tried to discredit or diminish the exploration of the New World by Columbus.

IMO many of you are just upset about the idea that he is no longer seen as 100% heroic and 100% explorer just for the sake of adventure/explorer.

Columbus' journey was very significant in the history of the Americas. No one in their right mind IMO would think otherwise as it set the stage for a series of events of which we are still experiencing today.

IMO it is important that we view Columbus and other European explorers for the men/humans they were. They were not 100% good and they were not 100% bad. They also probably could not have imagined what became of their journeys and accomplishments. It is also important IMO for people not to view the indigenous communities as some monolithic victim either. There were centuries of battles, skirmishes, and resistance of native people against the conquistadors along with many of them seeking to establish business and personal relationships with Europeans and Europeans likewise with native American people.

IMO it is important that the history be seen as the complicated story that it is. Europeans were not some sort of saviors to non-Europeans like many of the people in the thread seem to believe they were. However, they were also not extreme villains like people today do like to characterize them as. Most academic published works on this history, IMO do not have any sort of Marxist scheme nor do they seek to discredit or diminish the accomplishments of Columbus or other Europeans who came to the Americas. Instead they are seeking to humanize them and make them real people. Real people are complicated beings.
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Old Yesterday, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Up North
4,305 posts, read 1,115,369 times
Reputation: 2555
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
LOL - hopefully this was a joke. In case it went over your head, I was just explaining to you that the idea that black people should get "sent" to Africa in 1865 is just as ridiculous as the idea that whites in 1865 should be "sent" to Europe. Both are ridiculous ideas.

The only people who don't have a problem with the idea of sending American black people to Africa, are usually white people who don't consider black Americans to be Americans. As noted, I have ancestry here from the 1600s. I am genealogically "more" American than a majority of white Americans in this country today as are all other black Americans since our ancestors have been here longer. We have more of a claim to this country than most white people. So hopefully that can help you see that just how the black people in 1865 overwhelmingly saw Lincoln's idea as ridiculous - today those of you who have the same/similar idea are much more ridiculous since another 150+ yeas have passed since 1865.
Like I said, the states came before the federal government. We Minnesotans. don't owe Southerners (or any other states) a da-n thing if you ask me. Nothing.
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Old Yesterday, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
10,188 posts, read 6,735,416 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavalier View Post
Like I said, the states came before the federal government. We Minnesotans. don't owe Southerners (or any other states) a da-n thing if you ask me. Nothing.
And yet you seem to promote the idea, even in jest, that others owe you or your ancestors gratitude.

As I've mentioned, ya don't need to sprain your wrist patting yourself on the back
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Old Today, 08:26 AM
 
48 posts, read 28,428 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
LOL - hopefully this was a joke. In case it went over your head, I was just explaining to you that the idea that black people should get "sent" to Africa in 1865 is just as ridiculous as the idea that whites in 1865 should be "sent" to Europe. Both are ridiculous ideas.

The only people who don't have a problem with the idea of sending American black people to Africa, are usually white people who don't consider black Americans to be Americans. As noted, I have ancestry here from the 1600s. I am genealogically "more" American than a majority of white Americans in this country today as are all other black Americans since our ancestors have been here longer. We have more of a claim to this country than most white people. So hopefully that can help you see that just how the black people in 1865 overwhelmingly saw Lincoln's idea as ridiculous - today those of you who have the same/similar idea are much more ridiculous since another 150+ yeas have passed since 1865.
I've never met anyone who thinks blacks aren't Americans. Anyone who has ever uttered "go back to Africa" is a rube and can be easily dismissed as a creep.

That said, many Euro-Americans scratch their heads at the persistent assertion that blacks "built" this country, when the "building" for any successful society also includes heavy intellectual and innovative labor. (i.e. the oldest living constitution in world history, the mass production of automobiles, aviation, NASA, film and entertainment innovation, science, and the countless other modern necessities the non-American world takes for granted.)
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Old Today, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Up North
4,305 posts, read 1,115,369 times
Reputation: 2555
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
And yet you seem to promote the idea, even in jest, that others owe you or your ancestors gratitude.

As I've mentioned, ya don't need to sprain your wrist patting yourself on the back
I think you have it all wrong. All we want is the vile hatred from the Left to stop. The all "old white males" type of filth that liberals seem to be fine with these days - the all whites are evil or owe everyone else or need to step to the side in America for "diversity's" sake by way of our skin color or ancestral heritage.


That type of filth I will not ever stand for or tolerate. I will NOT allow the vilification of people like me. My father was an "old white male" who was the finest individual I ever knew. Never uttered a vile word about anyone, and worked 35 years for this country without once breaking a law. No, I will not allow liberals to stomp on his memory when he was A THOUSAND times the human most liberals could ever hope to be.
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Old Today, 10:11 AM
 
48 posts, read 28,428 times
Reputation: 125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavalier View Post
I think you have it all wrong. All we want is the vile hatred from the Left to stop. The all "old white males" type of filth that liberals seem to be fine with these days - the all whites are evil or owe everyone else or need to step to the side in America for "diversity's" sake by way of our skin color or ancestral heritage.


That type of filth I will not ever stand for or tolerate. I will NOT allow the vilification of people like me. My father was an "old white male" who was the finest individual I ever knew. Never uttered a vile word about anyone, and worked 35 years for this country without once breaking a law. No, I will not allow liberals to stomp on his memory when he was A THOUSAND times the human most liberals could ever hope to be.
It's turned me away from the Left, Kavalier. I've been a democrat my whole life, but I can't in good conscience pull the lever for people who constantly tell me how bad my people are. I'm exceedingly proud of my Norwegian heritage, and that smirking little chump Beto isn't going to run roughshod over my ancestral heritage in the name of political expediency and virtue signaling.
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Old Today, 11:41 AM
 
Location: La lune et les étoiles
17,692 posts, read 19,173,622 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boddicker View Post
I've never met anyone who thinks blacks aren't Americans. Anyone who has ever uttered "go back to Africa" is a rube and can be easily dismissed as a creep.

That said, many Euro-Americans scratch their heads at the persistent assertion that blacks "built" this country, when the "building" for any successful society also includes heavy intellectual and innovative labor. (i.e. the oldest living constitution in world history, the mass production of automobiles, aviation, NASA, film and entertainment innovation, science, and the countless other modern necessities the non-American world takes for granted.)
All of thee above included black Americans. So again, black Americans built this nation.


EVERYTHING that is great about America involves BLACK AMERICANS. America without the contributions of black people would just be bland like Canada.
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Old Today, 02:47 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
10,188 posts, read 6,735,416 times
Reputation: 6466
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kavalier View Post
I think you have it all wrong. All we want is the vile hatred from the Left to stop. The all "old white males" type of filth that liberals seem to be fine with these days - the all whites are evil or owe everyone else or need to step to the side in America for "diversity's" sake by way of our skin color or ancestral heritage.


That type of filth I will not ever stand for or tolerate. I will NOT allow the vilification of people like me. My father was an "old white male" who was the finest individual I ever knew. Never uttered a vile word about anyone, and worked 35 years for this country without once breaking a law. No, I will not allow liberals to stomp on his memory when he was A THOUSAND times the human most liberals could ever hope to be.
Nobody's vilifying you. But you're trying to grab credit for stuff that others have also contributed to. I guess when you've had the upper hand, equality looks like oppression.

And when others push back against your twisting the truth, you get all indignant. Puh-leeze.

There's a big difference...like I said, you don't like to share or even acknowledge that others have contributed to the community, and in fact, downplay such information.
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Old Today, 05:13 PM
 
Location: Up North
4,305 posts, read 1,115,369 times
Reputation: 2555
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
Nobody's vilifying you. But you're trying to grab credit for stuff that others have also contributed to.
Yes, the Left has made only one form of "pride" = "hate".

The left completely fine with other ethnicities/races all taking credit for their ancestors' achievements, but god forbid a Caucasian does it.

They'd rather us all to feel collective guilt for the sins of a few.

And they are madder than he-- that we have had enough of it.
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Old Today, 06:40 PM
 
398 posts, read 56,975 times
Reputation: 335
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
Nobody's vilifying you. But you're trying to grab credit for stuff that others have also contributed to. I guess when you've had the upper hand, equality looks like oppression.

And when others push back against your twisting the truth, you get all indignant. Puh-leeze.

There's a big difference...like I said, you don't like to share or even acknowledge that others have contributed to the community, and in fact, downplay such information.



Don't exaggerate the contribution of "others" while downplaying the fact that the western/European world has produced the free-est, most egalitarian and most minority-friendly and accepting societies on the planet, and you won't receive the pushback you see from caucasians tired of being cast as the world's biggest racists.


I mean, empirically, white-majority societies are the best places for minorities. Brown and black majority societies are awful for minorities in their midst. So if you're going to have a problem as a minority in the west, you need to stop casting it as a problem of "whiteness," since clearly your "own people" haven't managed to even get to the same level of progress yet.







In other words, you can have your say on how bad or how "not special" Europe/Western civilization is when places that have majorities that look like whatever minority you are produce outcomes for minorities in THEIR societies that are a FRACTION as positive and progressive as that of the western world.




Otherwise, the failure of replication of positive outcomes for minorities in other parts of the world belies any special contribution "non-whiteness" has to European/western civilization development. If white folks were the demons your lot cast them as, then minorities in the west would be treated like minorities everywhere else in the world.

Last edited by AHenriques1147; Today at 07:23 PM..
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