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Old 08-11-2019, 08:58 AM
 
143 posts, read 95,235 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
I don't know why you say that. White Americans are still overwhelmingly European with very little admixture of other races present. Now white European is not considered the entire race that Caucasian is. But my point is in America as in Europe the majority population is of the same genetic group, and that influences the culture they create.
Show me the part of human DNA where the " White genes " reside and I'll concur .
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Old 08-11-2019, 09:17 AM
 
6,800 posts, read 6,606,956 times
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I have heard theories that say the fact that winters are cold and harsh in Europe created races of people that were clever enough to survive and thrive in it, and therefore clever enough to do a lot of other things. Natural selection of sorts.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:07 PM
 
12,668 posts, read 3,966,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dude5568 View Post
Show me the part of human DNA where the " White genes " reside and I'll concur .
It's in the particular arrangement of the autosomal DNA mostly. Every ancestry DNA test shows you this. Are you a science denier?
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:19 PM
 
12,668 posts, read 3,966,121 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanAdventurer View Post
I have heard theories that say the fact that winters are cold and harsh in Europe created races of people that were clever enough to survive and thrive in it, and therefore clever enough to do a lot of other things. Natural selection of sorts.
I think the temperate seasonal climate might have been an even more challenge than just the cold winters.

There was definitely natural selection at play in Europe. Also I've read that the wealthy and nobility had many surviving children and the poor had few in Europe until well after the European ascendancy. There was also rules about consanguinity and from what I know Europeans selected each other's mates more organically rather than being mostly arranged.

We also need to look at specifically what was happening in the particular nations, England and Spain etc that advance in this time period. I think it was more than coincidental around this time Spain finally broke free of the influence of those in their midst who were not Spanish, the muslims and Jews were largely expelled around the time of ascendency.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:32 PM
 
Location: Ohio
20,125 posts, read 14,358,453 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
"White supremacy" only exists as a concept because the last 500 years of history have been dominated by Europeans. How did that come about?
War and a revolt against religious dogma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
There is the geography theory, as espoused by Guns, Germs, and Steel. The northern European plain is the nearest large agricultural region to the cradle of civilization, so the theory goes it was bound to become dominant. I generally don't buy this, because China and India were actually more prosperous until about 1500, so why did the geography hand dealt take so long to be played?
Geography is correct, but the theory espoused in that book is fatally flawed.

There are no navigable rivers in Africa.

Before someone spreads disinformation and says, "The Nile," you cannot sail from the White Nile or Blue Nile into the Nile and into the Mediterranean Sea because of the cataracts.

The Nile is only navigable from the last cataract on.

Contrast that with Europe which has over a thousand navigable rivers.

Poland alone has nearly a 100 rivers that are 100 miles long or more, and that doesn't even count the navigable rivers that are less than 100 miles in length.

Rivers are important because they facilitate trade. Trade always increases Standard of Living. You can trade surplus for goods you have little of, or goods you don't have at all.

Trade also results in an exchange of culture, ideas and technology.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
There are genetic theories, mostly garbage...
That's right.

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Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
More plausibly, the development of the scientific method is easily shown to be an antecedent of most of Europe's modern advantages, and the scientific method was developed around 1500.
Yes, after the Popes got slapped down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
That raises the further question of why Europe developed the scientific method, which Christian and classical apologists have played with for quite some time.
The Reformation broke the yoke of the Imperial Roman Catholic Church and people were allowed to believe the Earth might be a sphere without being tortured, murdered or both and having their property confiscated by the Church.

People were allowed to believe we have a heliocentric solar system instead of an Earth-centric solar system without being tortured, murdered or both and having their property confiscated by the Church.

People were allowed to believe that disease might be caused by something other than an imbalance of colored biles in the body without being tortured, murdered, or bother and having their property confiscated by the Church.

People were allowed to pursue and investigate any number of beliefs or ideas without being tortured, murdered or both and having their property confiscated by the Church.

Don't forget Columbus was haled before the Inquisition for believing the Earth was round. Queen Isabella intervened on his behalf and persuaded the Inquisition to give Columbus a chance to prove it, with the idea that if Columbus fails then the Earth is flat and he falls of the edge of the Earth and dies and that's god's punishment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
I think the classicists have more to work with, which raises the question why the ancient Greeks were so advanced.
To which ancient Greeks do you refer?

Sorry, the Greeks were not "advanced."

The early Greeks, the Phrygians, Dorians, Ionians, Lydians et al who lived on Anatolia (Turkey) knew the Earth was round and orbited the Sun only because the Sumerians, Akkadians, Mari, Nuzi, Mittani Hittites, Hurrians et al knew that.

Those people could predict solar and lunar eclipses, as well as the paths of the planets and when those planets went retrograde and for how long they went retrograde and more importantly, why they "appeared" to go in reverse. They had mathematical tables for that. Lots and lots of tables on cuneiform tablets. They were also aware of the phenomenon of the Precession of the Equinox and had tables for that, too. The tables started with Pisces and went through to Aries listing the dates.

The later Greeks, the Spartans, Thebans, Athenians et al in Greece-proper dicked over the entire world for more than 1,500 years with their moronic philosophies that only the 5 Senses can prove things.

It was the later Greeks to got stupid and started believing Earth was flat and the center of the Universe, and disease is caused by an imbalance of the colored biles and that humans were propagated by spontaneous regeneration, because Aristotle the Idiot said so and that's what the Imperial Roman Catholic Church adopted as dogma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
Most compelling to me is the European discovery of the new world. It happened around 1500 as well, and produced fabulous riches for Europeans, as well as acting as a population pressure release valve.
It didn't produce anything for Europe. It bankrupted Spain and Portugal and damn near bankrupted England and France.

That's why Britain didn't give a damn if Cornwallis succeeded or not. The Colonies were a money pit that Britain could no longer afford. The Colonies just weren't the time or effort and created more problems than the solved.

And, what population pressures?

Nobody even wanted to come to the Americas.

It was everything they could do to bribe people to come to the Roanoke Colony and it failed. And the second failed. And the third failed.

They finally got a colony at Jamestown, but it never turned a profit.

Later when the Puritans came, well they wanted to be dictators and ban Christmas and ban Easter and ban birthdays and do a lot of other things that normal people thought was totally bizarre, off-the-wall, weird or down-right disgusting, they didn't turn a profit, either.

And, the only reason school text-books rave about the Puritans is because the North won the Civil War.

The first colony -- Jamestown -- was in the Virginia....the South. The Puritans were in the North. That's called Political Propaganda.

The reason you had indentured servitude is because you couldn't get anyone to come the Americas.

The governor of the Virginia Colony told the handful of people living there if you bring people here, I will give you land for free.

Those people went back to England and bribed people to come to America: "I will pay your passage to America. You work for me for 7 years to pay off the debt and then I will give you a piece of land."

That's how it worked.

There were lots of population pressures from migrating peoples before 1400 CE, but not afterward.

Don't forget when the Spanish first saw the cities in Mesoamerica they were totally flabbergasted.

They had never seen cities that large before.

European cities were small back-water podunk towns with small populations.

In the 1400s, the largest European city was in North Africa: Cairo.

Cairo had roughly 1 Million people and you can take any 50 cities in Europe and the populations would not even equal that.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:48 PM
 
Location: Kansas City, MISSOURI
9,181 posts, read 2,814,740 times
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Nobody here has mentioned Christianity. Two things:

1. Christianity compels its adherents to go out and convert non-believers. Once they discovered "heathen" in the New World, that was a signal to European Christians that they should go over there and convert them.
2. Internal strife within Christianity meant that some rebellious factions would want to leave to a place where they could be left alone by "official" authorities. If it hadn't been for such strife, the Puritans, for example, would never have wanted to go to the New World and found the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

I'm not saying that was the only factor, but it was an important one.
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Seattle
1,110 posts, read 239,969 times
Reputation: 1210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
"White supremacy" only exists as a concept because the last 500 years of history have been dominated by Europeans. How did that come about?
I think it's a combination of Geography and the scientific method. The role of Geography was to distribute power among multiple northern European states, increasing competition. China, in contrast, has long been unified, which has stifled their progress (and still does to some extent) thanks to an oppressive bureaucracy. The scientific method has been around since BCE, but was mostly forgotten in Europe during the Dark Ages. Northern Europeans did perfect it though, and the nation-state competition drove rapid scientific advances for the next five centuries. The Spice trade helped further feed this competition.

As for White Supremacy: it's an outdated notion fed by bad "science" like eugenics, as well as cultural arrogance. White skin is superior at generating vitamin D in poorly-lit northern climes. European Caucasians have a better tolerance for drinking Milk past childhood.
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:00 PM
 
11,068 posts, read 4,125,676 times
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The Protestant Reformation, led by Martin Luther, and others.
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:54 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,607 posts, read 643,160 times
Reputation: 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avondalist View Post
Didn't the Black Death also devastate the population of the Middle East and China? I can see it as a catalyst for ending the middle ages, but I don't see it as a differentiator between civilizations.

I've read that the Black Death did indeed force a restructuring of feudalism due to the paucity of labor. The father of Jeanne D'Arc, Jacque D'Arc (approx. 1400 AD) was an example of a 'free villein' (serf) who managed to acquire his own plot of land to grow various crops and raise animals, and became relatively prosperous and important in his community. This probably would not have happened prior to the plague.

It's not hard to see how this could promote individualism, self-reliance, and innovation.
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Old 08-11-2019, 01:58 PM
Status: "but it depends on what the definition of "is" is." (set 13 days ago)
 
Location: Clyde Hill, WA
3,607 posts, read 643,160 times
Reputation: 1141
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Bond 007 View Post
Nobody here has mentioned Christianity. Two things:

1. Christianity compels its adherents to go out and convert non-believers. Once they discovered "heathen" in the New World, that was a signal to European Christians that they should go over there and convert them.
2. Internal strife within Christianity meant that some rebellious factions would want to leave to a place where they could be left alone by "official" authorities. If it hadn't been for such strife, the Puritans, for example, would never have wanted to go to the New World and found the Massachusetts Bay Colony.

I'm not saying that was the only factor, but it was an important one.
Islam has the virtually the same principles of calling the faithful to proselytize others. What happened there? Islamic civilization was at least, and probably more advanced than the West until about 1500.
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