U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-12-2019, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Japan
10,946 posts, read 4,513,826 times
Reputation: 7027

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
There is no such thing as European culture. Our European ancestors didn’t call themselves European, they identified as what ever country they came from. Irish in America had almost nothing in common with say Hungarians in America. No shared language, no shared history, no common traditions,etc. take Denmark and Italy. Same issues. There are dozens of these examples, and indeed numerous historical examples of what you call Europeans outright rejecting one another as they came to America for being “too different”.
If you're going to claim that there is no such thing as a European American culture, you'll need base your argument in the present day, not historical examples.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-12-2019, 06:57 PM
 
143 posts, read 95,235 times
Reputation: 172
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Enlightenment View Post
Seems like you don't understand the term "common descent". It simply means having ancestors in common.

Trying to stick with the topic of the thread... Europeans, for instance, share more common ancestry with each other than they do with non-Europeans, so they can be called a "race" (or population group, or whatever term you prefer). The same might be said of Englishmen, or Swedes. They could be called races as well, or just subsets of the European race. Our traditional "social construct" ideas about this line up pretty well with recent data about genetic clusters.
All right , let's end this .

Nobody is saying populations don't cluster into phenotypical groups corresponding to geographical locations . The point is that dividing people like this is essentially meaningless and tells us nothing useful. You can slice and dice it any way that fits your social and political agenda . As you yourself have noted ,we can divide people into as many "races" as we want but that has no tangible biological meaning . Randomly chosen phenotypical categories are just that , randomly chosen .

YOU choose to go back to the supposed " common ancestor " of all europeans and stop there because you have decided that Europeans NEED TO be a separate category as that fits with how you want to see the world. There is nothing rational underlying it .

Take it or leave it .
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 06:57 PM
 
12,670 posts, read 3,966,121 times
Reputation: 3833
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Why are Indians (Asians) and Chinese and Taiwanese and Japanese so much smarter than, for example, Western Russians?

It's not cold in India. It wasn't cold in Greece....wasn't cold in Rome and the aqueducts beat most engineering projects for many centuries.

I've also considered the "cold" scenario....but, remember, the Germans were the "barbarians" when we discuss Rome being finally taken down...in civilization.
India has a very low average IQ. And it was cold and an ice age where the Romans and NE Asians evolved in much of their evolutionary history, but I think more importantly it is seasonal and temperate and that's probably more of a challenge than strictly cold.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 07:06 PM
 
Location: NE Mississippi
13,855 posts, read 8,707,884 times
Reputation: 20181
Black Plague, which cause a massive labor shortage, cause the creation of labor saving devices such as the printing press.
It also resulted in a bacteriological more resilient human race, cause the creation of hospitals, simpler and more functional homes, a more prosperous middle class, broke the stranglehold that the Catholic Church had on people, and caused spread literacy.
There was, and is, nothing inherently more advanced about white people. They just happen to live in Europe, which happen to have an East-West orientation, and therefore a huge trading area unencumbered by such thing as the equator, an impassable desert, or a central America where jungle and heat made trade passage and animal migration nearly impossible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 07:07 PM
 
12,670 posts, read 3,966,121 times
Reputation: 3833
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Enlightenment View Post
If you're going to claim that there is no such thing as a European American culture, you'll need base your argument in the present day, not historical examples.
And I think he has his historical examples wrong too even cherry picking the extremes. Europeans shared more than just nothing-Western civilization in general, Christianity, various history and culture, phenotype and genotypes more than with say with non-Europeans.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 07:09 PM
 
Location: New Albany, Indiana (Greater Louisville)
9,969 posts, read 21,233,706 times
Reputation: 9504
Quote:
Originally Posted by craigiri View Post
Why are Indians (Asians) and Chinese and Taiwanese and Japanese so much smarter than, for example, Western Russians?

It's not cold in India. It wasn't cold in Greece....wasn't cold in Rome and the aqueducts beat most engineering projects for many centuries.

I've also considered the "cold" scenario....but, remember, the Germans were the "barbarians" when we discuss Rome being finally taken down...in civilization.

There needs to be a formula...one that most White Suprematists don't subscribe to. That is "you didn't build that". It takes a full support structure of government, taxes, metal and stone workers, farm workers and others to make it so that an innovator or other experimenter can stop working long enough to get something done.
Russia and parts of China and Japan are at the same latitude. Taiwan was colonized from the north by Chinese and Japanese. Greece is at a similar latitude to Maryland / Virginia. Rome is at a similar latitude to NYC. It doesn't explain everything but I tend to think something about adapting to both cold and very short days to gather food might have something to do with development inequality. But it's certainly not 100%.

I think govt and social system is a major factor in human development. Why was Germany poor in 100 AD but now rich? Rural Appalachia and rural New England both have majority populations of British ancestry, why is one so much richer? Why is India poor but Indian immigrants to the West usually rich? The system and societal values seem to be greatest determiner of life outcomes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 07:10 PM
 
Location: Japan
10,946 posts, read 4,513,826 times
Reputation: 7027
Quote:
Originally Posted by dude5568 View Post
All right , let's end this .

Nobody is saying populations don't cluster into phenotypical groups corresponding to geographical locations . The point is that dividing people like this is essentially meaningless and tells us nothing useful. You can slice and dice it any way that fits your social and political agenda . As you yourself have noted ,we can divide people into as many "races" as we want but that has no tangible biological meaning . Randomly chosen phenotypical categories are just that , randomly chosen .

YOU choose to go back to the supposed " common ancestor " of all europeans and stop there because you have decided that Europeans NEED TO be a separate category as that fits with how you want to see the world. There is nothing rational underlying it .

Take it or leave it .
No, not biologically meaningless, not based on phenotype... nothing to do with a singular common ancestor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 07:29 PM
 
15,966 posts, read 4,220,340 times
Reputation: 11361
Quote:
Originally Posted by censusdata View Post
Russia and parts of China and Japan are at the same latitude. Taiwan was colonized from the north by Chinese and Japanese. Greece is at a similar latitude to Maryland / Virginia. Rome is at a similar latitude to NYC. It doesn't explain everything but I tend to think something about adapting to both cold and very short days to gather food might have something to do with development inequality. But it's certainly not 100%.

I think govt and social system is a major factor in human development. Why was Germany poor in 100 AD but now rich? Rural Appalachia and rural New England both have majority populations of British ancestry, why is one so much richer? Why is India poor but Indian immigrants to the West usually rich? The system and societal values seem to be greatest determiner of life outcomes.
The later question is addressed fully in the book written by a Scots-Irish lawyer who is/was from the Cumberland Plateau.

In the USA, the answers are quite simple. The North was populated by Simple Religious Fundamentalists - and some goods traders (Dutch) who were already highly educated and literate. They were trained in trades...and had "compacts" which somewhat guaranteed meritocracy.

Jametown was looking for Gold. When they didn't find gold they didn't want to work....most died off. More were send and, under threat of hanging, finally did a little work...some of it in stealing food supplies from the Indians.
Finally they went a bit South (over the River/Bay) and saw that the "Gold" was in drugs (tobacco) and they imported Slaves and Indentured Servants to make it happen. That was the Southern Culture for 100's of years. No Harvard, No Yale, No Factories...no "Protestant Work Ethic". Forced Labor.

Many of the indentured servants were illiterates - sent (got rid of) by Britain because they had no trades and were not literate, etc. - when their time (as slavemasters or workers) was up, they escaped to the Mountains.

"It is apparent that such human refuse, dumped on a strange shore
in the keeping of a few hundred merciless planters, was incapable of
developing the kind of stable society under construction in the Puri-
tan North"

Same DNA......in general But different opportunities and education.

Full text of Night Comes to the Cumberlands:
https://archive.org/stream/nightcome...3caud_djvu.txt

"New England was settled by farmers and villagers, but the climate
and soil of the Southland did not entice such settlers. The economic
value of the Southern region was discovered by planters, and there
a plantation society was established and nurtured. As Europeans
became habituated to nicotine, the demand for tobacco expanded at
an astronomical rate. Tobacco was a cash crop and producers sought
to manufacture it from the soil in the most efficient and least expen-
sive way. Thus there grew up along the tobacco coasts a spangle of
plantations, the majority originally quite small, embracing at most a
few thousand acres. Slaves were imported from Africa to work the
land, and then more slaves and still more. But so rapidly did the
demand for the product grow that not even by the mightiest exer-
tions could the slave traders keep up with the demand for black
field hands. As the plantation economy strengthened and as the
cotton plant appeared in the same regions, the labor shortage
became acute and the planters turned to the teeming cities of Eng-
land. "

"t was to these orphans and to the debtors' prisons which the labor-
hungry planters of the Southern coasts turned. Parliament wanted
to get rid of these social outcasts, who so proliferated and burdened
the respectable classes of England, and the agents of the plantation
owners were able to paint glowing pictures of the wonderful new
world waiting beyond the Atlantic, where the weather was sunny
and where men might perform honest labor under wholesome condi-
tions. The inevitable result was a series of Parliamentary acts making
it possible to transport street orphans, debtors and criminals to the
New World, their transportation costs to be paid by the planters.
Of course, these wretched outcasts were obliged by law to repay the
generous planter with the sole commodity they could produce —
their labor. The period of indentureship was usually seven years,
though sometimes it was much longer.

And so for many decades there flowed from Merry England to the
piney coasts of Georgia, Virginia and the Carolinas a raggle-taggle of
humanity — penniless workmen fleeing from the ever-present threat
of military conscription; honest men who could not pay their debts,
pickpockets and thieves who were worth more to the Crown on a
New World plantation than dangling from a rope, and children of
all ages and both sexes, whose only offense was that they were
orphans and without guardians capable of their care. "

This is perfect evidence of what progressive try to put forward over and over again - that you need to educate people and treat them right - not "cast them off" because of their circumstances......

Much of the advancement of Europe may be because of our lack of caring about many (most?) of our own fellows.....out of sight, out of mind. The free planter or industrialist in the north didn't come in contact with the overseer on the plantation or the cotton plantations (other then to finance or build ships, voyages, etc.).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 08:37 PM
 
2,908 posts, read 1,681,005 times
Reputation: 1980
Quote:
Originally Posted by dude5568 View Post
All right , let's end this .

Nobody is saying populations don't cluster into phenotypical groups corresponding to geographical locations . The point is that dividing people like this is essentially meaningless and tells us nothing useful. You can slice and dice it any way that fits your social and political agenda . As you yourself have noted ,we can divide people into as many "races" as we want but that has no tangible biological meaning . Randomly chosen phenotypical categories are just that , randomly chosen .

YOU choose to go back to the supposed " common ancestor " of all europeans and stop there because you have decided that Europeans NEED TO be a separate category as that fits with how you want to see the world. There is nothing rational underlying it .

Take it or leave it .
Populations cluster genetically as well. It certainly has meaning and there's nothing random about it. Human beings aren't genetically homogeneous. We are all hybrids, with different human populations having different percentages of admixture from different archaic species.

Europeans and Asians have 1-3 percent Neanderthal DNA. Australian Aborigines and Melanesians have up to 6 percent Denisovan DNA in addition to Neanderthal DNA and recently it's been discovered that they also carry DNA from another unknown species. West Africans carry DNA from an unknown ghost species as well - up to 8 percent. Other groups in Africa, like the Khoisan and pygmies, have DNA from other unknown species.

https://www.iflscience.com/editors-b...ghost-hominin/

https://www.sciencedaily.com/release...0715094918.htm

All humans are related but we are not all genetically the same. Some of us have strands of DNA that are hundreds of thousands of years removed from other people. This isn't something trivial.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 08:47 PM
 
1,791 posts, read 611,838 times
Reputation: 1381
After Guns, Germs, and Steel came out, Francis Fukuyama attempted his own grand narrative in a book called The Origins of Political Order. (Fukuyama is infamous for his End of History thesis, but when you swing for the bleachers you're apt to whiff a lot. I think most scholars are scared of tackling really big questions for this reason, so I give Fukuyama credit for trying.)

Fukuyama develops a framework for building political order and then applies it to European, Chinese, and Indian civilization. The three necessary components of political order are:
1) State building (institutions not personalities)
2) Rule of law
3) Accountable government (human rights, elections, etc.)

China had a strong state but no rule of law (rampant corruption, different legal standards for different classes) and the emperor was only accountable to Heaven.

India by contrast had weak states because the Brahmins constantly protested against violence and war. As a result India had accountable government.

Europe in contrast to China (dominant state) and India (dominant church) had constant church-state battles. This created a hybrid of state building, rule of law, and accountable government where the competing forces were balanced.

Fukuyama holds this balance between countervailing forces to be the hallmark of modern political order, and sees such a balance first appearing in England and Denmark.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top