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Old 08-14-2019, 08:16 AM
 
13,568 posts, read 4,109,303 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ossify View Post
Like skin complexion, the matter of race and culture is problematic, because race is largely based on how others percieve others in terms of either a social category or an ethnic heritage, or both. In some cases people are correct, but other times they are not. An Agentenian might be confused for an Italian, a Spaniard for a Roma, or a Persian for a Hispanic... yes this happens, and a lot.

Secondly, if you want to get to the meat of these "conspiracies" (there is a seperate forum for debates) about "race" and test scores, and you insist that neither culture or enviroment is to blame for abysmal test score statistics, than what you have left is a discussion about genetics.

Now, few people are qualified to talk about genetics and race without sounding like they're the kind of person that makes sweet music with farm animals at night. Being said, the problem that I have with these studies about race in general, is that "race" is terribly innacurate, and sometimes -if not often- poisoned by bias, or even politics. Think about it, North Africans are racially categorized by the US federal government as white. Hogwosh! A lot of Americans are ethnically mixed to some degree, and genes can express any given trait from any ancestor, so any such "study" done on typical Americans is snake oil.
OK then, by that reasoning we can't talk about black vs white educational outcomes and their cultures, because as you explained we can't even accurately define black and white. OK so let just stop talking about black vs white culture and outcomes.

I don't agree with this continuum fallacy and confusing the issue, but if we're going to say two groups can't even be defined, then stop making comparisons.
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Old 08-14-2019, 05:33 PM
 
Location: Japan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
You are totally misunderstanding and misconstruing the hereditarian argument. The culture is strongly influenced by inheritance. It's not about single individuals but the group overall. The argument is why can't two genetic/racial groups have the same average educational performance and outcomes. And the hereditarian argument is there is no reason to expect they would or should or even could.

And if the argument is why can't two genetic/racial groups have the same culture, the answer is the same there's no reason to expect it.

The flaw is to compare two fundamentally different groups and expect them to be identical in the first place.
Yes, this notion that equality is the baseline natural condition is an amazingly widespread, fundamental misunderstanding of how the world works. Equality among groups is only an ideal, something we can work toward if we choose. There is no reason to think it exists in nature.
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Old 08-14-2019, 06:32 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Enlightenment View Post
Yes, this notion that equality is the baseline natural condition is an amazingly widespread, fundamental misunderstanding of how the world works. Equality among groups is only an ideal, something we can work toward if we choose. There is no reason to think it exists in nature.
Yeah, and this idea that all groups are naturally "equal" leads to faulty attribution when inequality appears among groups, resulting in blaming the wrong things and people and wasted efforts and resources. Also the onus is on the group to work toward improving their own outcomes.

I believe a lot of those in leadership and elites know this to be true but intentionally rejected and suppressed it and ran with an alternative explanation for various motivations that aren't so noble.
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Old 08-14-2019, 07:03 PM
 
Location: Japan
11,057 posts, read 4,568,657 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtl1 View Post
Yeah, and this idea that all groups are naturally "equal" leads to faulty attribution when inequality appears among groups, resulting in blaming the wrong things and people and wasted efforts and resources. Also the onus is on the group to work toward improving their own outcomes.

I believe a lot of those in leadership and elites know this to be true but intentionally rejected and suppressed it and ran with an alternative explanation for various motivations that aren't so noble.
It's a huge source of resentment and conflict in society, as harmful as any religious myth in our history.
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Old 08-15-2019, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Raleigh NC
9,856 posts, read 7,456,301 times
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having been involved in elementary schools for the last 12 years (my own children and 2 different elementary schools), I make this observation:

Children of all races and economic backgrounds are relatively even in Kindergarten. Variances are certainly attributed to how much socialization (preschool) and education (preschool reading and "ABC's" type learning there and at home) have occurred. It's a great reason to help the lower-income folks get their very young children into a socialization and learning environment before they show up at school for K. Sadly, each year the schools have 5-10% show up the 1st day of school with child in tow, having never even registered the child.

Somewhere - seems about 3rd grade, but definitely by 5th grade - the "parent support" and the importance the child feels about doing well in school comes out. Parent support does not mean going to school social functions or even volunteering in school. It means the parents have to value the education, and require their kids to do their best. They have to know whether homework is done and pay attention to test scores. Attend teacher conferences, or they have to email the teacher to find out issues and share their own concerns - not about the quality of the teacher, but "what does Johnny need to improve on?"

And yes, some of the WORST kids in those 3-5 grades are from the over-privileged folks, not the under-privileged. The difference is, you can pass on the over-privileged behavior issue brats and they'll either grow out of it or they'll get their money from family. You can't do that with the behavior and learning issues of the low-income.
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Old 08-15-2019, 10:11 AM
 
Location: New York
556 posts, read 486,967 times
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The mental gymnastics liberals go through to try to explain away nature is comedy on the level of a great stand up. Despite statistics, evidence, and plain as day observations, they still find some absurd string to hang an excuse on.

Race matters people, thatís why the world looks the way it looks - simple as that.
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Old 08-15-2019, 12:44 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroWord View Post
2 or 1 parent household?
My mom was a single mom. She had 4 kids by 2 different men, and as noted, she wasn't the best mom but black moms are usually very focused on education and making sure we do better than they did/do.

I am married and have 2 kids. One is a senior in high school. I have a cousin who is a single mom of 2 kids - hers are the same age as my own kids. Her son who is also a senior in high school has a 4.33 GPA at a private high school - the 2nd best high school in our city and he has had many scholarship offers already both athletic and academic. In regards to grades/achievement in school she's done better with her kids as a single mom than I have as a married mom. Her son is VERY driven, mine is very lackadaisical even though he is very intelligent (he was in Duke TIP as a middle schooler and scored in the 98th percentile on the math ACT in middle school but he got Ds in math at school - go figure lol). Her son does worse on standardized tests than mine did/does but has gotten all As since he started school and now takes Honors/AP classes - mine still has a very high ACT score and her son's is just a bit above average but my son is in general education and just has around a 2.5 GPA.

Parenting itself is important not the type of family structure. Most of my cousins as well were raised by single mothers and almost half of us have master's degrees and make over $75k per year in an area where the median income is less than $60k. Our family itself is heavily invested in education because of our grandparents and great grandparents who often were denied careers in certain fields because they were black so many in their generation just didn't even attempt it.

My family is not unique amongst black families. Most black people do well in life and most of the ideas shared in the thread are rather stereotypical. Especially the post about black people not being interested in STEM. Black people are interested in STEM it is just that there is a lot of bias in the STEM field that was experienced, really by my own generation to where many of those interested in those types of careers, especially computer science related fields, don't want to get into them because it is hard to find a job that pays well. They can get into business and still do a lot in tech/IT if they want and make money and have better career opportunities. Most black people with degrees get one in Business management/adminstration and the most population master's degree for black Americans is an MBA. I have 4 cousins who have an MBA. Two of them work as consultants for software/technology.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:09 PM
 
8,546 posts, read 2,559,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoBromhal View Post
having been involved in elementary schools for the last 12 years (my own children and 2 different elementary schools), I make this observation:

Children of all races and economic backgrounds are relatively even in Kindergarten.
Did you know that blacks (on average) develop faster than whites, Orientals, and Amerindians? In fact, this accelerated development starts in utero, as blacks have a shorter gestation period than whites. This faster development to explain why they seem to start out even and then fall behind compared to members of other races as they age.

-----

Racial differences in pregnancy duration and its implications for perinatal care.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2292982

"The average length of gestation is about 5 days shorter in black populations than in white populations."





Does gestation vary by ethnic group? A London-based study of over 122 000 pregnancies with spontaneous onset of labour

Roshni R. Patel, Philip Steer, Pat Doyle, Mark P Little, Paul Elliott

International Journal of Epidemiology, Volume 33, Issue 1, February 2004, Pages 107–113

https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/33/1/107/668109

"The median gestational age at delivery was 39 weeks in Blacks and Asians and 40 weeks in white Europeans."

"One hypothesis for shorter average gestational length amongst black infants is that earlier maturation of the feto-placental unit relates to the maternal pelvic size. A smaller pelvis benefits the mother in evolutionary terms in relation to posture and stability when running."

"It is well recognized that gross motor skills develop in black infants earlier than in their white counterparts. There is also evidence of earlier fetal maturation."
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:12 PM
 
13,568 posts, read 4,109,303 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by residinghere2007 View Post
My mom was a single mom. She had 4 kids by 2 different men, and as noted, she wasn't the best mom but black moms are usually very focused on education and making sure we do better than they did/do.

I am married and have 2 kids. One is a senior in high school. I have a cousin who is a single mom of 2 kids - hers are the same age as my own kids. Her son who is also a senior in high school has a 4.33 GPA at a private high school - the 2nd best high school in our city and he has had many scholarship offers already both athletic and academic. In regards to grades/achievement in school she's done better with her kids as a single mom than I have as a married mom. Her son is VERY driven, mine is very lackadaisical even though he is very intelligent (he was in Duke TIP as a middle schooler and scored in the 98th percentile on the math ACT in middle school but he got Ds in math at school - go figure lol). Her son does worse on standardized tests than mine did/does but has gotten all As since he started school and now takes Honors/AP classes - mine still has a very high ACT score and her son's is just a bit above average but my son is in general education and just has around a 2.5 GPA.

Parenting itself is important not the type of family structure. Most of my cousins as well were raised by single mothers and almost half of us have master's degrees and make over $75k per year in an area where the median income is less than $60k. Our family itself is heavily invested in education because of our grandparents and great grandparents who often were denied careers in certain fields because they were black so many in their generation just didn't even attempt it.

My family is not unique amongst black families. Most black people do well in life and most of the ideas shared in the thread are rather stereotypical. Especially the post about black people not being interested in STEM. Black people are interested in STEM it is just that there is a lot of bias in the STEM field that was experienced, really by my own generation to where many of those interested in those types of careers, especially computer science related fields, don't want to get into them because it is hard to find a job that pays well. They can get into business and still do a lot in tech/IT if they want and make money and have better career opportunities. Most black people with degrees get one in Business management/adminstration and the most population master's degree for black Americans is an MBA. I have 4 cousins who have an MBA. Two of them work as consultants for software/technology.
That's right, don't do something and blame that on another group and make them the scapegoat or fall guy.

I just wished for once I could hear one black person say they didn't accomplish something because it was too hard for them or they couldn't on their own accord. I know I've heard white people say it, and I think Asians would say it.
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Old 08-15-2019, 01:15 PM
 
15,644 posts, read 8,041,898 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MetroWord View Post


Ok, I'll play along.

No, culture is not based on skin color. However, there is a strong correlation, almost a connection, between race and culture. When we talk about this, of course we are not talking about ALL member of a certain race adhering to a specific culture. However, we are talking about a very significant part of the population following the dominant culture of that group that it is safe for us to assume they follow a particular culture based on their race without the fear of offending.

I you don't believe that culture is based on skin color why do you continue to correlate black educational achievement to "black culture." As I noted to you earlier, most of you don't know anything about black American culture and you often equate it with a streotype from the 1700s of dysfunction instead of the actual culture.

The "dominant" culture of black people in America is American culture. There are different ethnic groups of Americans.


For example, if you run into a Vietnamese, chances are this person will know what pho is. I'm sure if you search hard enough you will find one or two Vietnamese who have never known pho. These exceptions do not negate the fact that pho is a well known Vietnamese dish and it is safe to assume every Vietnamese person knows what it is.

I'm black and pho is one of my favorite winter meals. Most black Americans I know they also know what pho is lol. Does that make us culturally Vietnamese?

So, when we see an obviously hispanic person who speaks spanish, it is safe to assume this person follows certain hispanic culture. I'm sure if you search hard enough you will find a Mexican who worships Thor and follows the Nordic traditions. But this one exception does not negate the general rule.

What "hispanic culture" are you speaking about. Speaking Spanish could mean you are European from Spain. White and black people speak Spanish as well, does that mean that they all follow a particular hispanic culture?

And yet blacks' test scores continue to be abysmally low compared to everybody else on average.

Do you believe that test scores of blacks are related to culture and if so, in what way? What is the cultural attribute that is associated with this. And is if from black people or general American culture? Note - America has always stated that black people are less intelligent than whites, even in the 1700s before testing - it was used as one of the reasons/excuses for continuing slavery. On the history mentioned in the latter - do you feel that history - whereas the idea that blacks are intellectually inferior (a long held belief/tradition of America) is a part of American culture, and do you feel it impacts the black demographic from a social perspective - i.e. the general populace has a particular negative POV of black people and that negative POV impacts the social situation of black children in school?

How do you explain dirt poor asian immigrants who attended the same schools as majority blacks and hispanics and somehow have done very well? My parents worked minimum wage jobs. We lived in an impoverished area. My siblings and I attended one of the worst schools in the area. Predominantly hispanic and black. We had a small asian group. Everyone in our group went on to college and became engineers and other stem professions.

I went to school with dirt poor Asian immigrant/refugees and I and my siblings are doing better than all of them and I'm not in STEM lol. We also were more "dirt poor." I mentioned my mom was a single mom. She was 17 when I was born and I was her second child. We were on welfare most of my childhood until I was around 10. Most Hmong and Vietnamese in particular who are the lowliest Asians in America do not have better statistics than black Americans. Also Asians do not deal with the American cultural tenet I mentioned above - a culture that relegates them as intellectually inferior. I went to school with quite a few Vietnamese girls in particular who were not very smart and who could barely speak English but the teachers gave them more care/concern in regards to assisting them than they especially did of the black boys in our classroom. Three of those girls I went to school with married white men and are SAHMs today and not working at all - nothing wrong with being a SAHM BTW but the idea that all Asians are smart nerds who grow up and make a ton of money is false. America stereotypes everyone in this nation and children are treated better/worse in the educational system by the teachers/administrators based on their race. This is documented behavior. But the idea that Asian are better than black people is silly to me because I grew up around a lot of Asian Americans and white Americans and Latino Americans (mostly Chicano/Chicana). You have your bright, driven, and trouble makers and slackers in all groups.

I'm sorry, but based on our experience, even these underfunded schools offered enough for students to succeed.



I have a special request for you. Please make use of the paragraph.

FYI lol - I can write in any way I please. Not my fault if you don't want to read more than 2-3 sentences. Lots of people are lazy today in their reading. If you don't want to read them, then don't. It won't bother me. I like to be long-winded. I could write you under the table if I put on my intellectual panties. I'm pretty easy going here on the forum with the diction and structure for your benefit.

Like this.

And avoid huge blocks of texts.

Regarding the bolded sentence. You misunderstood the word "involved". Of the 4 years that I attended high school, my parents set foot in that school may be 3 times at most. But they were extremely involved with my school work. How? They often reminded me the importance of school work. At dinner, they talked to me about school and listened to what I'd learned. Etc.

This is no different for a majority of black parents. This is nothing-stuff that you see as "involvement" and is not unique to Asian American families.
Responses in bold above. Honestly most of what you wrote is kind of elementary since we are speaking of school. You often mentioned "black culture" and yet you never say what black culture includes or what you are critiquing. Seems you just have joined in the overarching cultural view of America in regards to black people and are chorusing stereotypes from the 1700s in regards to using race and culture as a reason to have an inferior view of others. These conversations online are always interesting because it really does show that you have a lack of critical thinking skills when it comes to non-STEM subjects. It is also hilarious that you are trying to give me tips on writing when a part of my career is writing and I've won writing competitions and published material before lol! I remember you saying you were a police officer. Maybe you quit because you didn't like writing or reading reports.
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