U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-12-2019, 08:49 AM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
12,312 posts, read 6,463,335 times
Reputation: 11969

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Floorist View Post
One of those who died in Florida, someone who as mad at him called in and later admitted that she lied.
That's tragic and disgraceful and I hope that the neighbor is taken care of appropriately. Still, I wonder if there is a way to make these red flag laws more palatable and acceptable to all. Is there a way to reform the laws (because there is a good chance they are coming at a national level . . . so we need to start discussing ways to have the very best red flag laws if we do end up having to live with them) to make them work better to where abuses like this one are less likely to happen?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-12-2019, 08:57 AM
 
19,579 posts, read 17,622,236 times
Reputation: 10700
Kids and even some adults that get pissed off at people playing against them in video games have sent SWAT teams to their houses by filing false reports of gun violence. Some have died when the police start shooting at those who had no idea why they were having their houses invaded. Other times the police have entered the wrong house or were looking for a person that no longer lived at that residence.
Any honest cop will tell you that the best deterrent to crime is when a citizen or shopkeeper shoots a burglar or robber and has the legal right to do so. Its unfortunate that these citizens come under closer scrutiny than police officers, even when highly trained police officers become far more aggressive and trigger happy than untrained civilians.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 08:57 AM
 
Location: NC
7,178 posts, read 5,036,873 times
Reputation: 7933
Quote:
Originally Posted by ET14 View Post
Red Flag Laws. Here’s a scenario... It’s a Sunday night and your family has all gone to bed. You let the dogs back in and lock the deadbolt like you do every night. All the lights are off now except a couple of night lights scattered throughout the house leaving that dim glow throughout your home. It’s bedtime and work and school are going to come early in the morning. You crawl in bed, kiss your wife and drift off to sleep being thankful for the air conditioning that allows you to pull that heavy quilt up over your shoulder despite the fact it’s still 85 degrees outside.



A few hours pass... 0200 Monday morning and your wife taps your leg and says, “baby I heard something outside”. As you sit up in bed you hear the dog growling in the living room and you know something isn’t right. You grab that trusty ole 870 and head into the living room. Your wife grabs her 9mm and heads down the hall to the kids rooms just like you have rehearsed. “Good boy” you say as you enter the living room, trying to calm both the dog and your wife just as splinters fly across the room and the front door flys open.


“Oh Crap!” As you shoulder your weapon and send a load of 00 Buck across your living room and see the perpetrator fall in a heap. Before the “thank God” can even run across your brain, you see a second man coming in the door and you fire again. This time you hear the pop of your wife’s 9mm as she has joined in the fight. It has to be those damn meth heads from down in town! Just then you are consumed by a wall of bullets as you see multiple muzzle flashes from just outside the door and you realize something isn’t right. You turn to yell at your wife to “get down” just in time to see her take a load of buckshot to the face and her brain matter splatter the wall behind her. You feel the burning as 5.56 bullets Riddle your body. One clips your spine as you’re scrambling away and paralyzes your lower body.



The last thing you see before you bleed out is a SWAT guy from your local PD holding your teenage daughter on the floor with a knee in her back as she screams and cry’s because she just watched her parents being murdered. Why did this happen? You’re no criminal. You’re a Conservative and an honest family man. Your wife is a school teacher and your daughters are on honor roll. Why did this happen? Well two days ago, you and your wife went down to welcome the new neighbors to the community. Your wife made them some of her “world famous” cookies and you invited them to church on Sunday. Later that afternoon, you got a friend request on Facebook from your new neighbor, which you gladly accepted. They seemed a little odd, but in the few minutes you talked they were pleasant enough.


The next day while you and your family sat in church, your new neighbor scrolled through your Facebook profile. He saw that “Trump 2020” post and got infuriated. See, he’s a staunch liberal and he hates your kind. The next thing he sees are the hunting pictures you took last fall when your daughter bagged her first buck. Now he’s seething with fury because he is wholeheartedly against the “slaughter of innocent animals”. Next he sees your post from the last range day with your buddy and sees those scary black assault weapons on the table and that does it! He has to do something about the racist domestic terrorist living next door.



He picks up the phone, calls the local Sheriffs Office and reports you as a threat under the new Red Flag law. The SO follows their SOP’s and conducts a no knock warrant because you have now been denied due process and you are considered guilty until proven innocent. Now you, your lovely wife and two deputies have been killed for nothing. Your daughter will have absolute hell for the rest of her life. She will never be that successful person you dreamed for her to be because of the mental tragedy caused from seeing her parents murdered.



The local news paper will report that you were killed after firing on and killing two deputies and that “over a thousand rounds of ammo and 22 guns were confiscated from your residence”. Oh, those two deputies were just following orders. They left behind families as well and had served their community for over a decade. They didn’t know you were a stand-up guy with a great family. They weren’t allowed time to investigate things under due process. They were told you had threatened your neighbor and were out in the street waving an AR15 around. This is the reality of Red Flag gun laws. Innocent people will lose their lives. Red Flag laws will be used for petty and vengeful reasons without merit. -Chris Anders


Taken from FB and this is a VERY real scenario...also a reason I REFUSE to add people I don't know and my profile is completely locked down....
This is one scenario (it can go either way though, Trump supporter or Trump opposer gets flagged, same outcome).

So why on God's green earth would anyone support this proposal by the Trump Admin? (Not to mention, that "red flag policies" are very reminiscent of bad times in history: Hitler in the 30's, Stalin after that, and McCarthy-ism right here in the good old USofA. Do we really want to support this part of our world history?)

And to all you people acting like this is some kind of leftist thing, here is Kelly Ann claming it all to be Trump's idea:https://www.newsweek.com/red-flag-la...ontrol-1453127
Sure, she's lying (what else would you expect), but the point here is that the Trump Admin is a proud supporter of these laws. They are a BAD idea. They were bad under D's and they are bad under R's.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 09:01 AM
 
7,114 posts, read 2,586,193 times
Reputation: 3879
Not just red flag laws, btw:

Lawsuit: SWAT Team Shot 12-Year-Old in Kneecap During Raid

But nooooo, the government would never be a threat to anyone. Noooo....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 09:03 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,385 posts, read 4,232,654 times
Reputation: 4915
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
Question is how can we make red flag laws more palatable? Or are they inherently flawed? I think one thing you probably should get rid of is the no knock warrant in most cases. Also, merely receiving a phone call about someone perceiving you as a "threat" shouldn't be enough for the police to take any action.
Until you're given the benefit of due process, your rights should not be suspended, ever.
__________________
My mod posts will always be in red.
The Rules Infractions & Deletions Who's the moderator? FAQ What is a "Personal Attack" What is "Trolling" Guidelines for copyrighted material.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 09:07 AM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 11 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
12,312 posts, read 6,463,335 times
Reputation: 11969
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gungnir View Post
Until you're given the benefit of due process, your rights should not be suspended, ever.
I don't disagree, but also don't know if I'd say if a mere investigatory knock (and, again, we can discuss how exactly these red flag laws should work, which is the point of my posts) if a violation of due process. If there is credible evidence that you are abusing the law and the police follow up on it and the evidence is substantiated, then I'd have no problem with firearms confiscation. But it has to be based on something more than a mere allegation. Still, that's the exact point of my posts. To try to discuss ways how these laws/potential laws could be improved so that we don't have needless abuse.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 09:20 AM
 
7,114 posts, read 2,586,193 times
Reputation: 3879
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
I don't disagree, but also don't know if I'd say if a mere investigatory knock (and, again, we can discuss how exactly these red flag laws should work, which is the point of my posts) if a violation of due process. If there is credible evidence that you are abusing the law and the police follow up on it and the evidence is substantiated, then I'd have no problem with firearms confiscation. But it has to be based on something more than a mere allegation. Still, that's the exact point of my posts. To try to discuss ways how these laws/potential laws could be improved so that we don't have needless abuse.
Get rid of them is the only way, as they all have the "guilt assigned without due process, and the defendant must later prove innocence to regain rights" as their foundation.

The red flag law in its current incarnation in every state that has one is based on how at least one person FEELS about the danger the accused presents. The jilted girlfriend, the busybody neighbor, etc. If they FEEL like the accused is a bad person, they petition the system to disarm the scary bad person. At that point, their FEELINGS become the evidence and it then falls to literally one person - the judge - who makes decision based on the FEELINGS of these accusers, and if there is supporting evidence, as in the FEELINGS of other people, like the jilted girlfriend's buddies, the busybody neighbor's busybody spouse, etc, well ten the single person i charge of simply removing the accused's rights bangs a gavel and poof, the rights are gone...and the accused doesn't even know at that point that they have even been accused of a thing that they have just lost their rights because of.

It is guilt assigned based on emotion, absent any due process afforded the accused. In other words, the total absence of any sort of rule of law whatsoever and the death knell of US jurisprudence generally.

Strike them all down, completely. That's how you fix red flag laws.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 09:23 AM
 
Location: Out West
22,958 posts, read 16,996,188 times
Reputation: 26550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
Get rid of them is the only way, as they all have the "guilt assigned without due process, and the defendant must later prove innocence to regain rights" as their foundation.

The red flag law in its current incarnation in every state that has one is based on how at least one person FEELS about the danger the accused presents. The jilted girlfriend, the busybody neighbor, etc. If they FEEL like the accused is a bad person, they petition the system to disarm the scary bad person. At that point, their FEELINGS become the evidence and it then falls to literally one person - the judge - who makes decision based on the FEELINGS of these accusers, and if there is supporting evidence, as in the FEELINGS of other people, like the jilted girlfriend's buddies, the busybody neighbor's busybody spouse, etc, well ten the single person i charge of simply removing the accused's rights bangs a gavel and poof, the rights are gone...and the accused doesn't even know at that point that they have even been accused of a thing that they have just lost their rights because of.

It is guilt assigned based on emotion, absent any due process afforded the accused. In other words, the total absence of any sort of rule of law whatsoever and the death knell of US jurisprudence generally.

Strike them all down, completely. That's how you fix red flag laws.
We have not evolved at all from our Puritan days.

"He's a witch! Hang him!"
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 09:24 AM
 
Location: Itinerant
6,385 posts, read 4,232,654 times
Reputation: 4915
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
I don't disagree, but also don't know if I'd say if a mere investigatory knock (and, again, we can discuss how exactly these red flag laws should work, which is the point of my posts) if a violation of due process. If there is credible evidence that you are abusing the law and the police follow up on it and the evidence is substantiated, then I'd have no problem with firearms confiscation. But it has to be based on something more than a mere allegation. Still, that's the exact point of my posts. To try to discuss ways how these laws/potential laws could be improved so that we don't have needless abuse.
They can investigate all they like, but not take liberty or property prior to due process.

If someone is a credible threat, then you can arrest them, hold them for 24 hours, then charge or release them, based on evidence gathered. If you cannot achieve that in the time period, the person isnt a credible threat.
__________________
My mod posts will always be in red.
The Rules Infractions & Deletions Who's the moderator? FAQ What is a "Personal Attack" What is "Trolling" Guidelines for copyrighted material.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-12-2019, 09:25 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
30,986 posts, read 31,917,370 times
Reputation: 12684
Quote:
Originally Posted by BentBow View Post




Here is a real scenario....
It is called, dying on your feet, before you ever live on your knees.
When given a lawful command by the police it's best to obey...The man was a idiot....

I don't know how you people can live with such paranoia all caused by the obsession with guns...I've been on this earth almost 80 years, and have never even locked my doors, but then we have reasonable gun laws and far fewer guns here in Canada.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Politics and Other Controversies
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top