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Old 08-12-2019, 09:26 AM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
12,386 posts, read 6,476,995 times
Reputation: 12001

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
Get rid of them is the only way, as they all have the "guilt assigned without due process, and the defendant must later prove innocence to regain rights" as their foundation.

The red flag law in its current incarnation in every state that has one is based on how at least one person FEELS about the danger the accused presents. The jilted girlfriend, the busybody neighbor, etc. If they FEEL like the accused is a bad person, they petition the system to disarm the scary bad person. At that point, their FEELINGS become the evidence and it then falls to literally one person - the judge - who makes decision based on the FEELINGS of these accusers, and if there is supporting evidence, as in the FEELINGS of other people, like the jilted girlfriend's buddies, the busybody neighbor's busybody spouse, etc, well ten the single person i charge of simply removing the accused's rights bangs a gavel and poof, the rights are gone...and the accused doesn't even know at that point that they have even been accused of a thing that they have just lost their rights because of.

It is guilt assigned based on emotion, absent any due process afforded the accused. In other words, the total absence of any sort of rule of law whatsoever and the death knell of US jurisprudence generally.

Strike them all down, completely. That's how you fix red flag laws.
That's you describing how red flag laws have operated, not how to fix them so that they aren't abused. I'm being really adamant about this point because some kind of gun control is coming. We can work to come up with solutions so that whatever is handed down isn't a complete disaster or we can just sit by and take the current failure of red flag laws. I opt for the former.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:27 AM
 
10,515 posts, read 6,374,206 times
Reputation: 5869
Quote:
Originally Posted by shivers View Post
Unless there is strong wording in RFLs that make it a felony to falsely accuse or file a claim that someone is a danger it will be abused.
Maybe 20 years ago, even 10 years ago these laws might not actually be a bad idea. Although it is trampling on the rights of people. Now though, with our nation as polarized as every, when one is afraid to even show support for their POTUS , and with lack of common sense being utilized by the anti gun crowd, they will definitely be abused.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:28 AM
 
1,935 posts, read 558,870 times
Reputation: 2396
Hey I’ll say it just like gun conservatives say it to POC. If you point your gun at police, expect to die. If they say “put your gun down” and you don’t, then you get what’s coming to you.

See when these wrong house no knock raids kill people in poor neighborhoods, there’s no sympathy. Of course when the police start coming for you, now you’re worried.
Well if you have 22 guns in the house, have them ready to go when the government knocks down your door in the middle of the night.
This is what you guys collect all the guns for, the eventual time you have to fight the government isn’t it?
Don’t you need the assault rifles just for situations like this, to revolt against tyranny?
Nows your time to prepare to take out as much government law as you can when they raid your house. Where’s your contingency plans? Where’s your ultimate fight for the 2a? From your cold dead hands, remember?
Oh you mean you don’t really want to die defending 2a?

Last edited by Harry Hemi; 08-12-2019 at 09:37 AM..
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:29 AM
 
3,390 posts, read 1,755,068 times
Reputation: 5406
I can see that scenario happen. I also just see the easy one's happen. The likely scenarios that will happen. You and your neighbor hate each other. He knows you have a bunch of guns. He makes an allegation. You and your wife start going through a nasty divorce. She calls up and makes an allegation. You kid goes to school says something about your guns. Your kids school teacher feels it's her obligation to call the cops. These are very real things. They can happen to any gun owner. An allegation is made. You lose your guns and good luck getting them back!
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:30 AM
 
7,114 posts, read 2,587,397 times
Reputation: 3879
Quote:
Originally Posted by prospectheightsresident View Post
That's you describing how red flag laws have operated, not how to fix them so that they aren't abused.
The clause right before what you highlighted is my proposal to fix them.

There is no fix to any law that confers guilt without due process. Not proving guilt of what has been done mind you, but what MIGHT BE DONE IN THE FUTURE.

The only way to "improve" a law so profoundly illogical and antithetical to our entire rule of law itself is to abolish said law. Remove it from existence. There is no other way to "fix" it.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:33 AM
 
10,515 posts, read 6,374,206 times
Reputation: 5869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Hemi View Post
Hey I’ll say it just like gun conservatives say it to POC. If you point your gun at police, expect to die. If they say “put your gun down” and you don’t, then you get what’s coming to you.

See when these wrong house no knock raids kill people in poor neighborhoods, there’s no sympathy. Of course when the police start coming for you, now you’re worried.
Well if you have 22 guns in the house, have them ready to go when the government knocks down your door in the middle of the night.
This is what you guys collect all the guns for, the eventual time you have to fight the government isn’t it?
Don’t you need the assault rifles just for situations like this, to revolt against tyranny?
Nows your time to prepare to take out as much government law as you can when they raid your house. Where’s your contingency plans? Where’s your ultimate fight for the 2a? From your cold dead hands, remember?
Oh you mean you don’t really want to die because of you guns?

Wow, if that is what you think owning a firearm is like...I'm glad you don't. Scary stuff...
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Barrington
46,765 posts, read 34,407,940 times
Reputation: 15534
17 states have Red Flag Laws to temporarily hold a sale of a firearm. No 2 states have the same laws. All have appeals processes. Only one state allows coworkers to file a petition.

No one can just pick up a phone to invoke Red Flag in those states that have variable laws.

I am unaware of any Red Flag being invoked by a neighbor who read something not to their liking on FB.

No one knows what Trump means when he vaguely refers to Red Flag Laws. Likely, that includes him. Might mean support for state laws or a federal law that will get tied up in Congress.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:33 AM
 
30,110 posts, read 16,626,466 times
Reputation: 13998
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
When given a lawful command by the police it's best to obey...The man was a idiot....

I don't know how you people can live with such paranoia all caused by the obsession with guns...I've been on this earth almost 80 years, and have never even locked my doors, but then we have reasonable gun laws and far fewer guns here in Canada.
victim blaming, its a thing.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:34 AM
Status: "Proud American, Always and Forever" (set 12 days ago)
 
Location: DMV Area/NYC/Honolulu
12,386 posts, read 6,476,995 times
Reputation: 12001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Volobjectitarian View Post
The clause right before what you highlighted is my proposal to fix them.

There is no fix to any law that confers guilt without due process. Not proving guilt of what has been done mind you, but what MIGHT BE DONE IN THE FUTURE.

The only way to "improve" a law so profoundly illogical and antithetical to our entire rule of law itself is to abolish said law. Remove it from existence. There is no other way to "fix" it.
Again, merely talking to someone after receiving a credible report of abusive or threatening behavior is not conferring guilt without due process. That's standard, accepted police work. The same thing applies if the police receive a credible report of domestic violence or child abuse at someone's house . . . they will go an investigate.

That's one possible "fix" to red flag laws as they are. You don't see a fix to this as you're not allowing yourself to think outside of how the laws are currently administered.
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Old 08-12-2019, 09:37 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
34,787 posts, read 33,866,872 times
Reputation: 52147
I think what they are going to do is constantly move the definition of "mentally unstable" depending who is in office.
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